Paul C Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 This question is only for the new guys who are learning to trace bars. take a close look at the bar below and tell me if the bar is real or a put together. Also more importantly why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeikoGrusdat Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 ................. just as little warning for all those stupid guys who don`t want to learn anything about the basics of "strategies and tactics" :the seller of this bar is from GRAFENAU in germany !!!how many threads in how many forums do we need before every man on this planet knows this damned bastard who sells bars and orders he does not own ???!!!Actual price is 655 euro and rising............. 100% guarantee : you will get nothing for your money :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Assume this is a (another) eBay production? QED re e$cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :catjava: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian J Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Maybe he got demoted, what do we know. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schießplatzmeister Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Hello everyone:(Paul, sorry to follow this tangential path here, but Heiko brought up an important point.)Heiko is correct about this Ebay seller who has surfaced in a number of guises. In the past, he sold only photos of items (if you read the fine print). However, the photos were not even his to sell as he steals photos from auction house web sites and catalogues. Last week he again had photographs of items that were not his. He had a comical "about me" page where he purported to show "his" official ID card with his photo to show how reputable and trustworthy he is (it is interesting that the name was blocked from view). This fellow also uses shill bidders/accounts to drive the price up and so that it seems as though the piece has really generated interest (remember, all he needs is one poor sod to bid to make this profitable). This fellow is a persistant criminal who has not given up easily. It is amazing how much effort he goes to. Why wouldn't he just get a job as a chip fryer instead?This week, he is back with this bar (I will not ruin Paul's posited question by commenting on it) which he does not own. The "seller" has become more clever in that he lists a lot of other "house clearing" type worthless garbage (DVD's, etc.) to make it seem as though he is a genuine seller. He is becoming a bit more clever in his attempts. The key is that he always has "0" feedback. Ebay is clueless and their screening is obviously horrible to allow this clod to keep opening accounts.Oh well, back to Paul's initial question."SPM"................. just as little warning for all those stupid guys who don`t want to learn anything about the basics of "strategies and tactics" :the seller of this bar is from GRAFENAU in germany !!!how many threads in how many forums do we need before every man on this planet knows this damned bastard who sells bars and orders he does not own ???!!!Actual price is 655 euro and rising............. 100% guarantee : you will get nothing for your money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Cole Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 My guess is it is a put together because of the RAO ahead of the decorations with Swords. I would think it should come afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 My guess is it is a put together because of the RAO ahead of the decorations with Swords. I would think it should come afterwards.Daniel,Thank You for getting us back to the intent of this topic...to learn about real-vs-put together bars!!! Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 My intent with posting the above bar is to illustrate two specific points in regards to evaluating medals and determining if the bar can be traced and if the bar is real or a put together. In my opinion we do not need to know if the seller is good or not. Of course if it is an ebay seller with a bad reputation then stay away from him. However if you at at a show and have the bar in hand and we can evaluate it then it is a different situation. This bar is a put together for the following reasons:1. With the Crown Order 3 with swords there should be a China or SWA campaign medal. You can be 99.9999% sure that the KO3X or KO4X was not given out in WWI. 2. The Order of the mounting in grossly incorrect. A peace time Red Eagle Order 4 would never be in front of combat awards. The correct order of mounting is wartime awards, peacetime awards, foreign awards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 HI PaulI agree with you except for A peace time Red Eagle Order 4 would never be in front of combat awards. The correct order of mounting is wartime awards, peacetime awards, foreign awards. There is some exception : have a look about this ribbon bar of Oberstleutnant Duerr (now property of Charles)Christophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darrell Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 I guess if it wasn't put together, this thread would not have started :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Cole Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 The medals may be real, the bar just is not authentic, a reproduction bar with real medals. I made one of von Richtofen once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Cole Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 The medals may be real, the bar just is not authentic, a reproduction bar with real medals. I made one of von Richtofen once.The Crow Order and Chna /SWA was something I didn't know. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 For ever rule there is always an exception. Also the rules for mounting were not alwats followed by the person or by the person doing the mounting. Dan, I am not sure what you are asking. Are you unfamiliar with what the China or Southwest Africa campaign medals are for and what the Crown Order with Swords is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Guys,This thread did EXACTLY what it was intended to do. I learned from it. That's what matters. Thanks for posting this thread and the education that it provided!!! Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) As a bit of trivia, Kleitman noted only two Crown Order medalxs awarded between 1900 and 1913. One was worn by the chap below, KIA in 1914.Were there others Kleitman did not know about and who got the other one? Edited October 28, 2008 by Ulsterman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Here are all the PKO3X awarded during the Kaiser W2'reign. This list is from an old OMM review. Sorry for the scan this is the best I can doChristophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted October 28, 2008 Author Share Posted October 28, 2008 Thanks for the pic. Again we see the KO4X and we see the SWA or China Campaign medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riley1965 Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 Thanks for the pic. Again we see the KO4X and we see the SWA or China Campaign medal.Which is the SWA or China Medal? Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian R Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Great information, Paul. I knew the wartime awards should have come first, but I didn't know about the general rule concerning the the KO3X (KO4X) and China/SWA medals. :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 RICK, IS IT POSSIBLE TO ATTACHED THIS ENTIRE THREAD INTO MY THREAD ON TRACING BARS? IF SO, PLEASE DO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalnet Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I do believe the crown order is a silver gilt one, hence awarded after 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I do believe the crown order is a silver gilt one, hence awarded after 1916.Really?Please tell us more. Were these given out at all in WW1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medalnet Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 All orders awarded after 1916 were suposed to be made from gilt silver. Red Eagle 3rd class, Crown order 3rd class and everybody knows of course of the Hohenzollern in silver gilt.the Crown Orders and Red Eagle Orders are of course a lot more scares. They will be marked, like the Hohenzollern knight with the silver content mark "938". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I learn something new every day!I had supposed that this medal was not awarded post 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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