Ribbon bars help please US

[Noor]

here is two new ones...

is this one from Korea war?

[Noor]

and is here ARCOM in the first place?

[Ed_Haynes]

here is two new ones...

is this one from Korea war?

Yes, but the bar is reversed. In order: National Defence Service Medal, Korean Service Medal, and United Nations Service Medal.

For all ribbons, including these, check out: http://www.medals.lava.pl/index.htm

Edited January 1, 2009 by Ed_Haynes

[Ed_Haynes]

and is here ARCOM in the first place?

Yes: Army Commendation Medal, Army Good Conduct Medal, and American Defense Service Medal. Seems that a lower row (or rows) are missing.

Again, Lukasz has given us a fine resource, if you want something online.

[Noor]

Thank you Ed! I can ID ribbons thank you for the web (just sometimes want to be sure) but can you recomend some article as well about the reguations? I afraid, I just mess up at the moment because I don't know the right order.

Can those two ribbon bars be a one group? I got them from same place and both ribbons are well faded.

[Ed_Haynes]

There used to be (official) sites to get the regulations in PDF, but the ones I used have apparently been shut off to non-military sorts. Maybe someone can help.

I, too, wondered if they were part of a group. Very similar preservation. It would seem likely that there would be a missing three-ribbon row with a WWII trio.

[Doc]

You might find DA Pamphlet 672-6 of use. It is available on the web at http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/publ...-pam-6726.shtml

The actual regulation concerning wear of medals and decorations is AR 670-1, which also is available somewhere on the web. Doc

[MSgt_mode]

Yes it is, here's one spot: AR 670-1

Edited January 8, 2009 by MSgt_mode

[Ulsterman]

Ooops .

Sorry, I answered a different thread here accidentally.

In short Noor-no, odds are that there is a second row missing. The top row indicates a senior NCO @ 1946 because the ARCOM wasn't handed out that liberally until the 1950s. It was a special merit medal for service "other than in combat" (that changed during Viet-Nam) in the early days and it seems to have mostly gone to senior NCOs who got the job done and Pentagon staffers, at least in the first few years after its inception. Ostensibly for 'junior" soldiers, I have seen it awarded to Captains and Staff Majors in the Occupation forces in Germany in 1946/47.

Next is a GC medal with what appears to be a missing Good Conduct clasp (a twisted bronze rope) indicating at least 5 enlistments, so minimum, 13 years service (probably more). Then is the American Defense Medal-indicating 12 months service PRIOR to December 7th, 1941. In those days, even after Roosevelt expanded the US military in 1939-41, the US army was still VERY small.

This argues for a second row, because anyone who had the American Defense medal was due the Victory Medal and almost certainly earned the American Theater Campaign ribbon (see the above posts) and quite possibly either the Pacific or European campaign ribbon OR the Occupation ribbon.

Odds are this guy worked in a Command or Army/Corps (think shoulder patch here) facility state side doing something important in a rear area: it probably involved a telephone, a typewriter, a blackboard and maybe a wrench and screwdriver.

Edited January 8, 2009 by Ulsterman

[Doc]

Then is the American Defense Medal-indicating 12 months service PRIOR to December 7th, 1941.

Not necessarily-the requirements for the American Defense Service Medal: "a. The American Defense Service Medal (ADSM) was established by Executive Order 8808, announced in War Department Bulletin 17,1941. It is awarded for service between 8 September 1939 and 7 December 1941 under orders to active duty for a period

of 12 months or longer." Thus, theoretically, if you joined up on 6 December 1941 on orders which said you had a two-year committment, you would be eligible. Thus, not a requirement for 12 months service prior to 7 December, as I read the rules. I could be wrong, but that's how it reads to me. Doc

[Ulsterman]

Not necessarily-the requirements for the American Defense Service Medal: "a. The American Defense Service Medal (ADSM) was established by Executive Order 8808, announced in War Department Bulletin 17,1941. It is awarded for service between 8 September 1939 and 7 December 1941 under orders to active duty for a period

of 12 months or longer." Thus, theoretically, if you joined up on 6 December 1941 on orders which said you had a two-year commitment, you would be eligible. Thus, not a requirement for 12 months service prior to 7 December, as I read the rules. I could be wrong, but that's how it reads to me. Doc

Hmmm.... I never read this as pertaining to length of contacted enlistment, but I could well be wrong in my interpretation.

Everyone I know who actually got one of these was in the military well before 1941, so my own experience has clouded my perception.

The Officers' Guide, 8th edition (p. 162-63), perhaps the most useful and influential US military book out there as it was used by thousands of newly minted officers in the war, states:

"The American Defense Service Ribbon is authorized to military personnel for honorable service by those who entered upon a period of active federal service for 12 months or longer AND who in the discharge of such service served at any time between September 8, 1939 and December 7, 1941. Pending the issue of these medals, eligible persons may purchase and wear the American Defense service ribbon. (Circular 104: April 9, 1942).

This infers actual 12 months service I think.

I'd be interested what some of the expert US collectors think/know. Was there a clarifying War Dept. addendum?

As an aside, in the Officer's guide of 1943 I find the following interesting statement:

"Personnel who have NOT served outside the CONUS are EXCLUDED from wearing the American theater ribbon by the provisions of the Executive Order." So, unless you went outside the US, at least during the war, you got zip. Given the number of photos I have seen with the American theater ribbon being worn by officers at training camps inside the USA, I'm willing to bet that was changed by 1945.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Ulsterman

[W McSwiggan]

If read carefully, the quotation says service for 12 months any part of which was between 8 Sep 39 & 7 Dec 41.

My conclusion - - if one enlisted or entered active duty on 6 Dec 41 or departed active duty on Sep 9 '39 following a 12 month term of service he/she would be entitled. I know of no prewar enlistment for less than 12 months.

Can't make definitive statement about the American Campaign but... there were significant anti-submarine combat operations and I suspect many participants never got overseas - one would think that this would have generated a change to the "overseas clause".

Hmmm.... I never read this as pertaining to length of contacted enlistment, but I could well be wrong in my interpretation.

Everyone I know who actually got one of these was in the military well before 1941, so my own experience has clouded my perception.

The Officers' Guide, 8th edition (p. 162-63), perhaps the most useful and influential US military book out there as it was used by thousands of newly minted officers in the war, states:

"The American Defense Service Ribbon is authorized to military personnel for honorable service by those who entered upon a period of active federal service for 12 months or longer AND who in the discharge of such service served at any time between September 8, 1939 and December 7, 1941. Pending the issue of these medals, eligible persons may purchase and wear the American Defense service ribbon. (Circular 104: April 9, 1942).

This infers actual 12 months service I think.

I'd be interested what some of the expert US collectors think/know. Was there a clarifying War Dept. addendum?

As an aside, in the Officer's guide of 1943 I find the following interesting statement:

"Personnel who have NOT served outside the CONUS are EXCLUDED from wearing the American theater ribbon by the provisions of the Executive Order." So, unless you went outside the US, at least during the war, you got zip. Given the number of photos I have seen with the American theater ribbon being worn by officers at training camps inside the USA, I'm willing to bet that was changed by 1945.

Edited January 13, 2009 by W McSwiggan

[Doc]

Hmmm.... I never read this as pertaining to length of contacted enlistment, but I could well be wrong in my interpretation.

Everyone I know who actually got one of these was in the military well before 1941, so my own experience has clouded my perception.

The Officers' Guide, 8th edition (p. 162-63), perhaps the most useful and influential US military book out there as it was used by thousands of newly minted officers in the war, states:

"The American Defense Service Ribbon is authorized to military personnel for honorable service by those who entered upon a period of active federal service for 12 months or longer AND who in the discharge of such service served at any time between September 8, 1939 and December 7, 1941. Pending the issue of these medals, eligible persons may purchase and wear the American Defense service ribbon. (Circular 104: April 9, 1942).

This infers actual 12 months service I think.

I'd be interested what some of the expert US collectors think/know. Was there a clarifying War Dept. addendum?

As an aside, in the Officer's guide of 1943 I find the following interesting statement:

"Personnel who have NOT served outside the CONUS are EXCLUDED from wearing the American theater ribbon by the provisions of the Executive Order." So, unless you went outside the US, at least during the war, you got zip. Given the number of photos I have seen with the American theater ribbon being worn by officers at training camps inside the USA, I'm willing to bet that was changed by 1945.

I don't know when it was changed, but current regulations on the award do not exclude people who never were OCONUS.

The quotes you use from the Officer's Guide clearly support my interpretation. If you "entered a period of service" for 12 months or more, and if you served one day during the qualifying period, you got it. If they had meant "personnel who completed 12 months of service", they would have said that. Based on 30 years of reading Army Regulations, I would say it was clearly the intent that anyone who served at least one day during that period, and who had signed up for at least 12 months, got the award-- Nothing says they had to have served 12 months prior to December 7th, or completed the 12 months of service before getting the award, otherwise it would have been written something like "personnel who completed 12 months service during the period......". It was clearly the intent to recognise all who served during this period (with the possible exception, later changed, of those who never left the CONUS). Maybe we are arguing different things-- it may have been the case that they wanted to restrict it to those who successfully completed 12 months of service AND served during the time in question, but that is not really what it says. Unlike the comment by McSwiggan, the current regulation (I don't know if it originally read differently) does not require completion of the service-- it just says you must have "orders to active duty for a period of 12 months or longer", AND you must have served during the qualifying period. Otherwise, recent enlistments killed at Pearl Harbor would not have been eligible-- do you really think that was the intent? I bet they were all considered eligible, which would prove my interpretation, but I don't have access to any personnel records of people in that situation. Doc

[W McSwiggan]

Can't agree more than I do with Doc.

Generally speaking, American campaign medals tell when and where - not how long. Augmented with addenda, they can indicate campaings in theater and assault landings such as D-Day in Europe.

Wording on regulations is supposed to be very precise hence numerous changes when circumstances change. Find the latest regulation and you will find your answer.

This - of course - does not mean that service members always wear their stuff correctly - either due to "making a fashion statement", ignorance or departure from the service before the last change.

During my 32 years I saw many officers (myself included) who wore partial racks simply because they wanted to... my favorite being a Major who chose to wear simply, the DSC, Silver Star and the DFC! Just one of many little liberties...

Edited January 13, 2009 by W McSwiggan

[Noor]

Thank you guys for the information and help!

Here is my new Navy one with the "E" ribbon. Its look like one "E" device is missing. From where is possible to get one of this device? Or is there point to restore it at all?

Maker is stamped on the reverse metal plate - "Vanguard".

[Noor]

My new US bar...

Can you help please with the two awards on it:

1. ?

2. National Defense Service Medal

3. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon

4. ?

[JBFloyd]

1. Navy Good Conduct Medal

2. Navy Expert Pistol Shot

[Noor]

Thank you Jeff! :cheers:

[Harvey]

1. Navy Good Conduct Medal

2. Navy Expert Pistol Shot

Actually Jeff, it's not an Expert pistol medal, or it would have a big silver "E" on it. Sharpshooter has a bronze "S" and Marksman is just the plain ribbon.

Noor - I can pick you up some of the small silver "E" devices if you'd like. FYI, they are awarded to a ship and/or department for "E"fficiency - quite an honor, I'm told. Also, for the 6th award, instead of trying to cram 5 E's on the ribbon they have an E surrounded by a wreath.

Hope this helps.