Imperial fakes

[Jerry T]

Hello,

I am relatively new to the German Empire. But after having gone through all of the 4600 and some odd posts, I am reluctant to buy anything anymore. I understand that a lot of combinations are completely bogus, but what about their constituent parts? Are all their medals counterfeit as well? Or do we deal with a combination of authentic and fake?

Reading through all these post made me realize how completely ignorant I really am. However, I see it as a learning opportunity.

If I were to have bought the bar in, let us say, post 156, would I have wasted my money? or would I still have 5 good medals that just did not go together? I believe I have learned enough to turn down a pilot bar and observer bar (they felt like pewter!) at a local flea market, but some of the finer points of fake-detection still escape me.

I know there are some on this forum who look at a medals bar and will be able to tell me that it belonged to oberuntergrefreiterfeldwebel Franz von Fritz with a wife named Ilse and a dog named Spot. I doubt if I ever get to that level of competence, but I like to know enough not to get taken too often for too money.

Regards,

Jerry

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Jerry,

for most bars the medals are original, just remounted to make them more interesting.

Having said that, there are more and more copies of "better" imperial awards.

If you have a chance before buying, post them for opinion.

best

Chris

[Claudius]

Hello,

I am relatively new to the German Empire. But after having gone through all of the 4600 and some odd posts, I am reluctant to buy anything anymore. I understand that a lot of combinations are completely bogus, but what about their constituent parts? Are all their medals counterfeit as well? Or do we deal with a combination of authentic and fake?

Reading through all these post made me realize how completely ignorant I really am. However, I see it as a learning opportunity.

If I were to have bought the bar in, let us say, post 156, would I have wasted my money? or would I still have 5 good medals that just did not go together? I believe I have learned enough to turn down a pilot bar and observer bar (they felt like pewter!) at a local flea market, but some of the finer points of fake-detection still escape me.

I know there are some on this forum who look at a medals bar and will be able to tell me that it belonged to oberuntergrefreiterfeldwebel Franz von Fritz with a wife named Ilse and a dog named Spot. I doubt if I ever get to that level of competence, but I like to know enough not to get taken too often for too money.

Regards,

Jerry

Hello Jerry;

You cross across many points and ask several questions but I think your main point is the last thing you mention. "You would like to know enough not to get taken or spend too much money." A very good goal.

I don't have the perfect panacea for identifying ALL fakes from 1970 to today, but I have a best practice to follow.

1) Buy from dealers that have been around long time and will guarantee the authenticity or your money back.

2) Buy and read some of the good books on medals, orders, and medal bars.

3) Go to shows and handle a lot of good pieces and notice things like; construction and authentic aging.

4) If you do get something, post photos on this forum for other's opinions of the piece.

Good hunting.

[redeagleorder]

If I may add a few points to the very good ones above:

1.) Know what you are buying. Meaning if you buy either a bar or a single medal, know what it is. This may sound basic but there are people who buy things just because they 'look good'. For example, some research would show that the first medal on the bar in post 156 has extremely low issue numbers, and is heavily faked.

2.) In my opinion, bars are easier because of combination. If a bar's combination does not make sense, that is already a clue to keep on looking. Once again, lets take the bar above as an example:

a.) The first medal was given to NCO's and enlisted, whilst the fourth medal is a 24 year long service award to officers.

b.) In 1905 Bavaria gave out a jubilee medal, it also did this in 1911 to those who did not get that of 1905 (therefore you will never see them on a bar together). Therefore, it is impossible for a Bavarian bar to have a 24 year service medal and not have one of these medals.

c.) The first award is a peacetime one, which would never be mounted in front of the wartime iron cross.

3.) When in doubt, ask!

Regards,

Matthew

[saschaw]

If I were to have bought the bar in, let us say, post 156, would I have wasted my money? or would I still have 5 good medals that just did not go together? I believe I have learned enough to turn down a pilot bar and observer bar (they felt like pewter!) at a local flea market, but some of the finer points of fake-detection still escape me.

A lot of money, yes. Not having it in hands, but knowing where it came from, I'd assume three of these five awards are fakes, leaving the 40 Euro EK2 and the 20 Euro Centenary medal.... bad deal for several hundered bucks!

I know there are some on this forum who look at a medals bar and will be able to tell me that it belonged to oberuntergrefreiterfeldwebel Franz von Fritz with a wife named Ilse and a dog named Spot. I doubt if I ever get to that level of competence, but I like to know enough not to get taken too often for too money.

:D

[saschaw]

Another fake from "sammler-arsenal"

http://www.ebay.de/itm/4er-Ordenspange-eines-Balkankampfers-/181064210270?pt=Militaria&hash=item2a2844975e#ht_3780wt_1037

Before and after "upgrade" :

Just found this auction by coincidence: http://www.ebay.de/itm/181075720675

Quite a lot of Hindenburg ribbons from medal bars...

[Hauptmann]

Great thread! Would like to suggest though that if at all possible please copy and post the pics from auctions and such as once they are gone so are the pics. If the pics are still here members can continue to use them as reference.

Keep up the great work guys!

Dan

[saschaw]

Not possible for me due to German copyright laws, but users from other countries may be free to do... it would indeed be better for future references.

[Sergio]

Not possible for me due to German copyright laws, but users from other countries may be free to do... it would indeed be better for future references.

Ok

[saschaw]

Thanks, Sergio! What an incredible outrage... this is how many (dozen) medal bars butchered for falsifications... ?

Here are even more.... http://www.ebay.de/itm/181101622995

[Valter]

Thanks, Sergio! What an incredible outrage... this is how many (dozen) medal bars butchered for falsifications... ?

Here are even more.... http://www.ebay.de/itm/181101622995

I uploaded the pictures of collateral damage Hindys. And also of "balkan fighter" bar with "update".

Edited September 3, 2013 by Valter

[Poulton Palmer]

Hi gents,

just saw this one on german ebay:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Verdun-Kreuz-1914-1918-FLECK-SOHN-Hamburg-Emaille-Verdun-Ehrenbund-1-WK-/111160811185?pt=Militaria&hash=item19e1b35eb1

imo: not original because of a few obvious reasons (don't want to mention them because fakers are on this forum too I presume).

Greetings,

Poulton

[Valter]

Is this a fake too? Looks desirable (IF you ignore the fact the precedence is wrong), but it's on sale by (in)famous club... I can post direct link too, if it's appropriate.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Valter

[Guest Rick Research]

Frankenstein rubbish. The BMVK2X is WW1 type not M1905, XXIV is M1906 yet there is no 1911 Jubilee Medal (Schutztruppen didn't get them if out of Bavrian army for the 1905s).

[Valter]

Thanks Rick for excellent and fast explanation!

http://www.ebay.de/itm/141053050598?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

here's the link for auction, someone will throw alot of money...

[christerd]

Thanks Rick for excellent and fast explanation!

http://www.ebay.de/itm/141053050598?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

here's the link for auction, someone will throw alot of money...

And the buyer seems to bought a lot of things in the past ? (3000 + feedback ) and not a member here ...... to bad

[dond]

That seller is a well known crook.

[Guest Rick Research]

I am getting really peeved at the industrial production scale VOLUME of crap Imperial medal bars being mass-produced by Frankenstein crooks. This had not reached critical mass when I went offline in February 2010, but since coming back online in July this year, things have now reached a crisis stage where my PREVIOUS first question: "What color is the backing material" MUST now be replaced by

ARE THE RIBBONS NEW, WITH WHITE THAT GLOWS ELECTRIC BLUE UNDER BLACKLIGHT?

Things get a BIT tricky for Third Reich, when synthetic ribbons THAT DID NOT GLOW ELECTRIC BLUE ON WHITE STRIPES came in, but for pre-1930s medal bars it is cretin-obvious whether ribbons are SILK or SYNTHETIC, in hand.

"Dealers" who are SELLING this garbage--if not the actual manufacturers--have to know where the huge numbers of CRAP bars are originating. That also explains why we aren't finding loose singles--

apparently The Manufacturer (let's call him/they that) has minions out scouring Planet E for raw materials. Or worse--is destroying REAL bars in order to make CRAP composites.

Several years back my cousin Ulsterman and I were at a show and one of the Usual Suspects (at least for our region) would only go so far as to smirk that HIS were coming out of Austria--but The Manufacturer was supposedly "retiring" due to old age.

Horrible painful gruesome death, rather.

ANOTHER fine collecting area being ruined by criminal morons.

I've been shown several examples of "salted claims" so-called "groups" by Faithful Members here where original award documents are married to bogus medal bars, etc etc etc.

The collecting well is being well and truly poisoned and I'm seething mad-as-hell.

[speedytop]

Hi,

these are excerpts from his list a while ago (Fälschung! Leider wie 95% des Anbieters = Fake! Unfortunately like 95% of the provider.)

Uwe

[Valter]

That seller is a well known crook.

Who is this buyer?

Is it possible that crooks are fakely buying from each other just to improve each others feedback and then selling the bogous item offline to some uninformed collector?

If I understand right, the medals alone are good, but bars are frankensteined?

[Guest Rick Research]

Probably. Some things can only be determined in-the-hand.

[dond]

This seller also has a ready supply of fake medals as well.....

[Guest Rick Research]

Life sure is strange, isn't it?

The boobs who buy garbage can find THOSE websites...but not ones where non-cretinous collectors could save them flushing National Currency Units on rubbish.

There must be some sick twisted psychology going on between Criminous Sellers and Stoopid Buyers--like women penpals of jailed serial killers.

Or something.

The older I get, the more Darwin had it right. Yeesh.

[Valter]

This one is fresh from assembly line... Certainly NOT "Gebraucht: Artikel wurde bereits benutzt." (Item has already been used) as stated in description.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Grose-leere-Ordenspange-fur-5-Orden-7-Abzeichen-/370895411037?hash=item565b16d75d

[misiu]

Hi collector-friends,

guess, I found a new fake Imperial Medal Bar on German Ebay?

Here are the pics, what do you think? The reverse is "brand new" sewed?!

Regards

Detlef