Jump to content
Gentleman's Military Interest Club
Guest Brian von Etzel

Show your immaculate Godet Spangen!

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Nice! What is the 2nd ribbon on the bar?

Looks like a KVK2 1939 without swords....

My latest addition.... mint!

 

EF438C88-F320-4B9D-8008-758C53A386B7.jpeg

1DBC972C-C9D0-43E0-8B7D-C0A782174BB6.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ooh, that is cool, I like these weird medical combinations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is the most medical awards I have ever seen on one bar.  Wow.

Bravo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎22‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 22:29, Chris Boonzaier said:

Nice! What is the 2nd ribbon on the bar?

WMC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On ‎25‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 17:52, sftrooper86 said:

WMC

Here's the description of the medals on the last Bavarian Medical bar:

  • Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Kl. 1914 am Nichtkämpferband (OEK 1909); E gs/S;

  • Bayern König Ludwig-Kreuz 1916 (OEK 458), Br gs;

  • Preußen, Rote Kreuz Medaille 2.Klasse 1898-1921 (OEK 1871), S;

  • Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer (OEK  

    3803/2), E br;

  • Bayern, Verdienstkreuz für freiwillige Krankenpfleger in Silber (OEK 502), S;

  • Preußen, Rote Kreuz Medaille 3.Klasse 1917-1921 (OEK 1872/2), KM vg;

  • Freistaat Bayern 1922-1934, DA BRK für 20-jährige ersprießliche Dienstleistung ab 1922 (ohne OEK-Nr.), Br;

  •  Deutsches Reich 1871-1918, Südwest-Afrika Denkmünze für Nichtkämpfer 1907 (OEK 3166), St;

  • Deutsches Reich 1933-1945, Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Roten Kreuzes 1937-1939, Kreuz 2. Klasse (OEK 3555), Br vg.

cheers,

C

Edited by Claudio
adding info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My latest entry... one of my longest bars (17 orders and medals). This officer was a Freikorpskämpfer on the Eastern front right after WWI. Some rare medals on the bar:

  • Preußen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Kl. am Kämpferband, 1914 (OEK 1909), E gs/S;
  • 3. Reich (1933-45), KVK 1939 2. Kl. mit Schwertern (OEK 3835), BM br;
  • KuK Österreich-Ungarn bis 1918, Ehrenzeichen des Roten Kreuz 2. Kl. mit KD, 1914-1923, S emailliert;
  • 3. Reich (1933-45), Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer (OEK 3803/1);
  • 1. Republik Österreich, 1. WK-Kriegsteilnehmermedaille Österreich;
  • Weimarer Republik, Schlesisches Bewährungsabzeichen 2. Klasse (OEK 3303), E em;
  • Bayern Königreich, Medaille Weihnachten 1912 (OEK );
  • 3. Reich (1933-45), DA der LW Medaille für 12 Jahre (OEK 3859);
  • 3. Reich (1933-45), DA der LW Medaille für 4 Jahre (OEK 3860);
  • 3. Reich (1933-45), Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938 (OEK 3517);
  • Weimarer Republik, Medaille des Soldaten-Siedlungsverband Kurland 1919 (OEK 3396/N2 2.01.34), Br;

  • Weimarer Republik, Erinnerungsmedaille der Eisernen Division 1920 (OEK 3347/N2 2.01.22);

  • Russland Zarenreich, St. Stanislaus-Orden 3. Klasse mit Schwertern, Br vg;

  • Weimarer Republik, Detachement von Randow Deutschritter Kreuz 2. Kl., punziert  aif RS "935" (OEK 3388/N2 2.01.50d), Emaille oberflächlich beschädigt , S vg Em;

  • Russland Zarenreich, St. Georgs-Erinnerungsmedaille 1919 der deutsch-russischen Westarmee (N2 2.01.55f);

  • Ungarn 1918-1944, 1.WK-Kriegsteilnehmermedaille;

  • Bulgarien Zarenreich bis 1944, 1.WK-Kriegsteilnehmermedaille.

Cheers,

C

 

 

IMG_7281.jpg

IMG_7282.jpg

Edited by Claudio
edited info on medals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy cow, Claudio, that one is incredible, this guy must have had a very interesting career.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gents,

Here is my little contribution.

What puzzle's me, is the (possible) missing battle clasp above the Red Cross medal (see holes there).

Hope you like it?

BR, Chris

Fouphing_front.jpg

Fouphing_back.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎22‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 18:55, BalkanCollector said:

Remarkable bar, Claudio!

 

On ‎22‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 18:25, VtwinVince said:

Holy cow, Claudio, that one is incredible, this guy must have had a very interesting career.

thanks for the kind comments!

Wow! That's pristine, stone-mint backing!!! Maybe the holes can be explained that very likely the battle clasp was moved from the Red Cross medal to the right medal (China Medal)... could be? Who knows. Only a time period picture of the wearer with his bar could explain it.

Cheers,

 

Claudio

12 hours ago, Gensui said:

Gents,

Here is my little contribution.

What puzzle's me, is the (possible) missing battle clasp above the Red Cross medal (see holes there).

Hope you like it?

BR, Chris

Fouphing_front.jpg

Fouphing_back.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎22‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 04:08, Claudio said:

My latest entry... one of my longest bars (17 orders and medals). This officer was a Freikorpskämpfer on the Eastern front right after WWI. Some rare medals on the bar.

Cheers,

C

So you won that bar....great!  That is an awesome bar Claudio!  There are some really uncommon medals on this bar.  He had a long career and I hope the gent can be identified.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Claudius!

I'm afraid that on the basis of the medals on the bar, this is a practically an impossibile one to be identified, but I'm quite confident that somewhere lying around are still its documents to be found, maybe still with the family or collector that had this bar. It's like Falke's medal bar : it took me several years, but finally I could find the medal bar that went with documents (the other way around)!

Let's be positive and hope... I'll be watching the next auctions if something interesting may surface... you never know! ;)

ciao,

C

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Wikipedia

Alfred Georg Friedrich Kuno Karl von Randow

This was the comanding officer of the "Detachement von Randow" who fought the reds in 1919 (Freikorps) like the wearer of my medal bar. Very likely they knew eachother personally!

Interesting to notice that von Randow's medal bar is not too far off of the one purchased by me. In fact he wears almost the same combination of medals with some minor differences: his Deutschritterkreuz "Detachement von Randow" has the swords and he does also wear the Baltenkreuz 1st and 2nd class. Furthermore is also quite interesting to point out that von Randow he's wearing some "Weimarer Republic" stuff that has been banned after 1934 to be worn on medal bars at official events/occasions (parades, gala evening etc.). Naughty! Naughty! ;)

Detachement von Randow

I'm wondering if the wearer of my bar could be identified with the officers in this detachement (must have been an officer because of the Saint Stanislaw's order on his bar):

Das Freiwilligen Detachement von Randow war eine Freikorps-Einheit im Baltikum nach dem Ersten Weltkrieg. Es wurde von Hauptmann Alfred von Randow am 5. Januar 1919 in Schaulen aufgestellt, nachdem sein Ersuchen auf Bildung eines Freikorps zum Schutz der Bahnlinie nach Schaulen vom Armeeoberkommando (AOK) am 2. Januar 1919 genehmigt worden war.

Konkret ging es um die Sicherung der Bahnlinie Lidowiany-Tauroggen. Aus Formationen der ehemaligen 8. Armee, Freiwilligen, Versprengten der Eisernen Brigade (Leutnant Winterhalter mit rund 80 Mann), der Freiwilligenkompanie 5. Ersatz-Division, Freiwilligen aus Torgau unter Leutnant Prickler, einer Maschinengewehr(MG)-Kompanie in Tilsit unter Feldwebel-Leutnant Schulz wurde das Detachement gebildet. Am 11. Januar 1919 bestand etwa folgende Gliederung:

Stab des Detachement:

  • Kommandeur: Hauptmann Alfred von Randow, Tilsit
  • Adjutant: Leutnant G. Negendank
  • Verpflegungsoffizier Leutnant Bauch

Infanteriekompanien:

  • Führer Leutnant Durlach, rund 100 Mann, 4 schwere MG
  • Führer Leutnant Winterhalter, rund 100 Mann, 6 schwere MG
  • Führer Leutnant Schönfeld, rund 40 Mann

Das Bahnschutz-Bataillon unterstand taktisch seit dem 5. Januar 1919 unmittelbar dem LII. Armeekorps, Insterburg, seit dem 19. Januar der 1. Infanterie-Brigade, Oberst Sydow. Von diesem Zeitpunkt an führte die Truppe die Bezeichnung Freikorps von Randow.

Seit Ende Januar 1919 war das Detachement von Randow bestrebt, durch anhaltende kleinere Vorstöße den Gegner zu beunruhigen und ihn über die eigene Stärke im unklaren zu lassen. Fast täglich kam es zu Schießereien und Gefechten. Am 3. Februar 1919 stieß ein Jagdkommando der Abteilung von Randow bis zum Eisenbahnknotenpunkt Radviliškis vor und zerstörte dort Lokomotiven und Gleisanlagen.

Am 10. Februar traten als Verstärkung zwei württembergische Kompanien mit fünf Offizieren und 300 Mann des XIII. Armeekorps als 7. und 8. Kompanie (Gruppe Schwaben) zum Detachement. Das Freikorps vergrößerte sich jetzt schnell und erreichte bis Ende Februar 1919 eine Stärke von 2.635 Mann und vergrößerte sich bis zu seinem Ende auf fast 5.000 Mann.

Vom 14. März an trat das Detachement von Randow beiderseits Dubysa zum Angriff in Richtung Schaulen an und erstürmte eine Reihe von Ortschaften. Die litauische Regierung hatte von Randow hierzu mehrere Infanteriekompanien und eine starke Kavallerieabteilung unterstellt.

Nachdem es am 27. Februar zu einem Gefecht der Nordgruppe des Detachements von Randow bei Szakiany gekommen war, das von den Bolschewiki geräumt wurde, versammelte das Generalkommando LII die Abteilung von Randow am 10. März im Raum von Cytowiany zum Vormarsch, in dessen Verlauf die Abteilungen Meyer und von Randow am 12. März Radviliškis und Schaulen besetzten. Im weiteren allgemeinen Vorgehen erzielte das Detachement am 22. bei Kapzuny einen beachtlichen Erfolg und unterstützte litauische Truppen. Am 3./4. April gelang es überlegenen russisch-bolschewistischen Kräften, das von litauischen Truppen und kleineren Teilen des Detachements besetzte Poniewicz zu nehmen; diese folgen aber nur mit schwächeren Kräften, so dass das Detachement die sogenannte Szoja-Linie gegen alle Angriffe halten konnte.

Am 17. Mai übernahm Hauptmann Meyer die Führung des Detachements für den beurlaubten Major von Randow, der nicht mehr zu seiner Truppe zurückkehren sollte.

Cheers,

C

Alfred_vR.jpg

Edited by Claudio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24/09/2018 at 21:55, Claudio said:

 In fact he wears almost the same combination of medals with some minor differences: his Deutschritterkreuz "Detachement von Randow" has the swords and he does also wear the Baltenkreuz 1st and 2nd class.

2

Firstly, that isn't a Deutschritterkreuz 2 Kl. on your bar, but the far rarer Avalovkreuz 4 Kl.. The Deutschritterkreuz 2 Kl. was for NCOs and enlisted men. This is clearly an officer's bar. An officer would get the pinback Deutschritterkreuz 1 Kl. Also, the ribbon for the Deutschritterkreuz 2 Kl. is plain watered black silk. Your ribbon is the Avalovkreuz black ribbon with red, white and black stripes for Germany and white, blue and red stripes for Russia on the edges. Originals of any class of the Avalovkreuz are nearly impossible to find. So, you have something pretty unique, more so because it's on a bar.

Secondly, there wasn't a Baltenkreuz 2 Kl., but a semi-official version of the one-class only pin-back cross with suspension ring for wear on the medal bar. As far as I know, von Randow never received the Saint Stanislaus awarded by Bermondt-Avalov to officers of the Russische Westarmee or the St. George medal both of which are scarce to Baltic Freikorps fighters. Nor, as far as I know did he receive the SSVK medal. The black enameled Maltese cross with swords that von Randow is wearing is actually the Diebitsch-kreuz 2 Kl. Your bar is far more spectacular than the one von Randow is wearing as it's specific to both the Eiserne Division and the Russische Westarmee .

It's pure speculation. But, given the two Luftwaffe long service medals and the number of Freikorps awards, it's possible the recipient of this bar was originally a Freikorps flier or at least attached in some capacity to a Freikorps squadron. The Eiserne Division had several Flieger-Abteilungen (FA 424, 426, 427, 429 and Artillerie-Flieger Detachment 101) consisting of 140 planes that transferred to the Russische Westarmee and joined the Russian 3rd and 6th Don Airforce.

Edited by bolewts58

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

Was not FA 427 and Artillerie-Flieger Staffel 101 the same unit ?

Gunnar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi bolewts58! 

Wow... you make some very very interesting points; thanks for taking your time to explain these Freikorps awards, which are to the most of the collecting community quite unknown or underrated.

I was saying that it was a Deutschritter cross of Randow's detachment award, because it was so described by the auction house.  Furthermore I didn't know that the 2nd class of the Deutschritter order was intended only for NCOs; you never stop learning! ;) If so, even better, because I know that the Awaloff-Kreuz (German spelling correct?) is quite a rare order, like the other Freikorps awards or commemorative medals. Most of them, because of them are being also quite heavily faked. But you are right; to find such Freikorps medals or orders on a bar is quite rare or rather impossible. I did only see another one years ago being sold on Ebay for a lot of money. I wish I had saved pictures of it on my computer! But I do remember it wasn't a Godet's bar. I thought he could have been a pilot active on the Eastern front, but I also thought he could have been an junior officer that first was an Infantry-Officer and later went into the LW-service (like Kesselring to name a notorious career switch from army to air force). But of course it could be highly probable that the wearer of my bar was already in the air force maybe also a pilot during the end of WWI. I think that the wearer of my bar had to be very young, since he didn't have any other German WWI orders or bravery awards on his bar. In fact he could have joined the German air force very late in WWI maybe when he was only 20-21, so it would explain why he didn't have any other German awards like a Hohenzollern order, Saxon AO, BLZ, BMVO, WFO or others orders given usually quite profusely to junior pilot officers. Moreover he did have only 12 years long service medals on his bars, that means that he re-joined late in the 30ies the armed forces or maybe he was too young to get higher long service awards.

Since there weren't so many pilots, maybe this bar could be identifiable but it would take a lot of time and research. 

Here attached I also put a picture of Detlev Niemann (2) German awards book about the Awaloff Order: oddly or interestingly enough Niemann doesn't mention any 4th class and all the pictured crosses on his book have a skull on the top cross arm at 12 hours. But I know that there were Awaloff Orders without skull (German version?).

Thanks again to make this thread so interesting and to give so valuable and educated inputs into it.

Cheers,

 

Claudio 

 

IMG_7341.thumb.JPG.69fb1174fb69525e374f1628820e89a4.JPG

Also interesting:

Freiwillige russische Westarmee

ciao,

C

Edited by Claudio
adding text

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Soderbaum said:

Hi

Was not FA 427 and Artillerie-Flieger Staffel 101 the same unit ?

Gunnar

2

Basically yes. Artillerie -Flieger Staffel 101 was part of FA427. I have a Militarpass to this unit.

 

I was mistaken. The Awaloff-kreuz only had 3 classes and yours is a 3rd class without skull. There were many variations of these made and handed out by Bermondt-Awaloff during the 1920s and 30s. Given the number handed out, it's amazing that there are so few real ones on the market.

Konstantin Nikolaev writes extensively about this award in his book on Baltic awards. I'll have to struggle through the Russian and see what he says about the classes.

By the way, it's also possible that your guy was a staff officer with the Freiw. russische Westarmee. But, unless the documents show up, or a photo with the bar being worn, I don't think it will be possible to identify him otherwise, even though it's a pretty unique set of awards.

Brian

Edited by bolewts58

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, bolewts58 said:

By the way, it's also possible that your guy was a staff officer with the Freiw. russische Westarmee. But, unless the documents show up, or a photo with the bar being worn, I don't think it will be possible to identify him otherwise, even though it's a pretty unique set of awards.

Hi Brian!

That's what I also I thought; but thank you very much again for your most interesting additional informations on these rare Freikorps awards.

Ciao,

 

Claudio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 24/09/2018 at 12:34, Claudio said:

Wow! That's pristine, stone-mint backing!!! Maybe the holes can be explained that very likely the battle clasp was moved from the Red Cross medal to the right medal (China Medal)... could be? Who knows. Only a time period picture of the wearer with his bar could explain it.

Cheers,

Claudio

 

Claudio,

Hm, that could be an explanation. Any clasp on a Red Cross medal wouldn't fit due to the Red Cross medal itself.

BR,

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Gensui said:

Claudio,

Hm, that could be an explanation. Any clasp on a Red Cross medal wouldn't fit due to the Red Cross medal itself.

BR,

Chris

Yes, I know but I remember once that it was already offered a Red Cross medal with a battle clasp by an auctioneer in Germany some time ago ;)

 RKM with Ostasien 1900-01 battle clasp

RKM Ostasien 1900-01.jpg

Wikipedia RKM

Für die Teilnahme an Militärexpeditionen konnte die II. und III. Klasse auch mit einer der folgenden Spangen auf dem Band verliehen werden:

  • Südafrika 1899/1900
  • Ostasien 1900/01
  • Charbin 1904/05
  • Südwestafrika 1904/06
  • Peking

Die Spangen sind aus vergoldetem Bronze oder Messing gefertigt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×