EK 1914 Mystery German medal to British recipient

[lilo]

Hello,

I have read at : http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...,894297,00.html

'Lord Ironside could speak 16 languages, once posed for two years (1900-02) as a Boer in the German army in Southeast Africa, so impressed his Prussian superiors that the young spy was awarded the German Military Service Medal.'

[Time Monday, Oct. 05, 1959]

As I'm trying to establish the complete medal entitlement of British Field Marshal William Edmund IRONSIDE, 1st Baron Ironside (1880-1959) , can anyone help me what exactly is this German Military Service Medal ?

In other words I would like to correctly identify the 'German medal' awarded to this British recipient

I think that not too many British received German medals so may be a simple task ???

Many Thanks in advance

All the Best

Lilo

Edited January 10, 2009 by lilo

[Guest Rick Research]

Ahhh.... write that off as typical far afterwards distorted nonsense. :beer:

[Arthur R]

According to the King's College London military archives' website

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/cats/macleod/ma32-01-.htm ,

Ironside served in the German campaign against the Bondelzwarts and the Herero. If so, perhaps he received the Suedwest-Afrika-Denkmunze, which was the campaign medal for those operations.

[lilo]

Hi Rick, Arthur

Many thanks.

Rick, at the light of what Arthur have discovered/supposed what do you think Ironside did received ?

Please Let me know

All the Best

Lilo

[Chris Boonzaier]

A very interesting career indeed... and well documented...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Ironsi..._Baron_Ironside

But did he REALLY receive a medal?

I have never read that Boers helping the Schutztruppe qualified for medals, and they did not JOIN the German army. Many Boers lived in German South West Afrika and rode transport routes for the Germans, or even fought alongside the Germans, but not as official German soldiers.

There must be SOME record of what he did in Africa 1902-06.

One has to be careful that later generations did not butter it up and add to it...

[922F]

Gordon McGregor has researched German colonial troops [focusing on Southwest Africa] for years. He wrote German Medals, British Soldiers and the Kalahari Desert (2007) which includes a roll of 'en-bloc' imperial British forces recipients of the Southwest Africa Commemorative Medal [sWACM] for the (1907) Kalahari campaigns. That roll does not contain Ironside's name, but as Ironside apparently did not participate in the 1907 operations, that's no surprise. McGregor was working on a more general SWACM handbook in 2007. Possibly, he may now have discovered information relating to other 'individual' SWACM awards to British individuals for service in the earlier Bondelzwarts and Herero actions. McGregor's publisher [Namibia Scientific Society, P.O. Box 67. Windhoek Namibia -- nwg@iway.na] may be able to put you in touch with Gordon.

[lilo]

Hi Chris / 922F

Many tank for the comments and the Help.

922F,

I have the book previously mentioned by you and can confirm that you are right when you say that Ironside didn't received the German SWA medal with any of the Kalahari clasps and this because this medal was awarded to British troops as such. Ironside, for what we can desume, was in an undercorver secret service and as he joined as a Boer, in any case if He should had received a medal, it was with his Boer identity and NOT the British.

I'll try to contact Mr. Gordon McGregor to see if He can solve this mystery.

Chris,

You have stated :

I have never read that Boers helping the Schutztruppe qualified for medals, and they did not JOIN the German army. Many Boers lived in German South West Afrika and rode transport routes for the Germans, or even fought alongside the Germans, but not as official German soldiers.

However, FYI, I put an abstract of page 11 of the book previously mentioned from which it is clear that the Boers did received medals from the Germans (see the attachments below):

All the Best

Lilo

Edited January 11, 2009 by lilo

[Bernd D]

A very interesting career indeed... and well documented...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Ironsi..._Baron_Ironside

But did he REALLY receive a medal?

I have never read that Boers helping the Schutztruppe qualified for medals, and they did not JOIN the German army. Many Boers lived in German South West Afrika and rode transport routes for the Germans, or even fought alongside the Germans, but not as official German soldiers.

There must be SOME record of what he did in Africa 1902-06.

One has to be careful that later generations did not butter it up and add to it...

There were some Boers who received the MEZ2 between 1904-1907.

But I could not find a medal for Ironside.

Bernd

[Guest Rick Research]

Apples and Oranjes (to make a Herero-Hottentot war punny, sorry ) folks.

No one is questioning the later OFFICIAL exchange of medals.

The 1959 nonsense citation aserts that Ironside was decorated as a BOER WAR ERA SPY in the "Southeast" (SIC) African Schutztruppen. (Uhhh... hello! During the Anglo-Boer War of 1898-1902, what would

a) a British officer have been doing in a foreign colony where nothing was going on while his own Empire was engaged in a shooting war (NOT good for "ticket punching" ) and

b) conversely what would a so-called Boer have been doing supposedly wandering around aimlessly in Namibia-to-be playing at Schutztruppen when his own lands were engaged in life and death struggles for existence?

Nonsense.

NOTHING whatsoever to do with SouthWEST Africa campaining in 1904-08.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am very excited about the news of German awards to Boers!!! I never knew that.

The Kalahari 07 bar is well known but for other awards I had no idea!!

As for our man....

I assume that there is a bit of a mix up in all this.

Technically he COULD have been in the North Western Cape and Southern Part of DSWA during the closing stages of the Boer war, there were Cape rebels around who fled across the border. But the Germans were total non players in the war it would have been the waste of a valuable spy (if thats what he was).

What purpose would he have served in DSWA 03-04 spying? The British could have had little interest in the area, Only when the Germans built their radio station there that it became vaguely interesting.

I suppose he could have been wondering around like a lost fart and ended up winning an award.... but where? For what?

This IS a relatively famous man... I would not write any of this off just like that... but there must be SOME kind of evidence to be found?

[Chris Boonzaier]

"Lord Ironside could speak 16 languages, once posed for two years (1900-02) as a Boer in the German army in Southeast Africa, so impressed his Prussian superiors that the young spy was awarded the German Military Service Medal."

From TIME.... sounds like the start of some half truths, mix ups and gobbeldygook....

As soon as someone starts to claim 16 languages I begin to have my doubts...

[Chris Boonzaier]

"In 1902 Ironside was sent to South Africa and during the Boer War worked as a spy. These experiences later resulted in him being used as the model for Richard Hannay, the character that appeared in the novels of John Buchan. "

Here he seems to arrive in 1902....

[Chris Boonzaier]

This may help, but totally wrong (EK?!!?!?!?)

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:27 pm

Author: Poppy_Travel

Don't forget General William Edmund Ironside.

IRONSIDE, William Edmund (1880-1959), 1st Baron Ironside of Archangel and Ironside, Field Marshal

Service biography

Joined Royal Artillery 1899; South African War 1899-1902; transport section, German Army, Bondelzwarts War, South West Africa 1904; Staff Captain, South Africa 1908-1909; World War I 1914-1918; General Staff Officer Grade 3 1914; General Staff Officer Grade 2 1915; General Staff Officer Grade 1 1916; Commander, 99 Infantry Bde 1918; Commander-in-Chief, Allied Troops, Archangel, North Russia 1918-1920; Ismid Force 1920; North Persian Force 1921; Commandant, Staff College, Camberley 1922-1926; Commander, 2 Div, Aldershot 1926-1928; Commander, Meerut District, India 1928-1931; Lieutenant of Tower of London 1931-1933; Quartermaster General, India 1933-1936; General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Command 1936-1938; Governor and Commander-in-Chief, Gibraltar 1938-1939; World War II 1939-1940; Inspector General of Forces 1939; Chief of the Imperial General Staff 1939-1940; Commander-in-Chief, Home Forces 1940; Col Commandant Royal Artillery 1932-1946

He was awarded the Iron Cross in SW Africa for the work he carried out while spying on the Germans disguised as a Boer transport manager.

[Chris Boonzaier]

So maybe it is wrong to rule out his claims, it MAY actually be possible for 1904, a number of German books make mention of the expatriate Boers....

[lilo]

This may help, but totally wrong (EK?!!?!?!?)

Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:27 pm

Author: Poppy_Travel

Don't forget General William Edmund Ironside.

IRONSIDE, William Edmund (1880-1959), 1st Baron Ironside of Archangel and Ironside, Field Marshal

Service biography

Joined Royal Artillery 1899; South African War 1899-1902; transport section, German Army, Bondelzwarts War, South West Africa 1904; Staff Captain, South Africa 1908-1909; World War I 1914-1918; General Staff Officer Grade 3 1914; General Staff Officer Grade 2 1915; General Staff Officer Grade 1 1916; Commander, 99 Infantry Bde 1918; Commander-in-Chief, Allied Troops, Archangel, North Russia 1918-1920; Ismid Force 1920; North Persian Force 1921; Commandant, Staff College, Camberley 1922-1926; Commander, 2 Div, Aldershot 1926-1928; Commander, Meerut District, India 1928-1931; Lieutenant of Tower of London 1931-1933; Quartermaster General, India 1933-1936; General Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Command 1936-1938; Governor and Commander-in-Chief, Gibraltar 1938-1939; World War II 1939-1940; Inspector General of Forces 1939; Chief of the Imperial General Staff 1939-1940; Commander-in-Chief, Home Forces 1940; Col Commandant Royal Artillery 1932-1946

He was awarded the Iron Cross in SW Africa for the work he carried out while spying on the Germans disguised as a Boer transport manager.

Hi Chris,

Can you please post the link from which you have taken the source above mentioned ?

Moreover it is not clear to me if you think/believe that Ironside received the Iron Cross or Not.

Last, I have not well understood from which source you have taken the above career; can you please let me know ?

Regards

Lilo

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

an award of the EK was impossible as it was not awarded in this period, after the 1870 war the next awards were 1914... Campaigns in Africa did not get them (Other than during WW1)

I am not sure where this was, found it googling a few hours ago.

Best

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

I assume this book would clear it all up...

James Eastwood, General Ironside (Pilot Press, London, 1940);

Best

Chris

[Guest Rick Research]

Ah! Googling Wackypedia! MUST be true, THEN.

Perhaps he got the Uboat Badge with Diamonds while disguised as a tap-dancing lady dwarf from a circus in Buenos Aires in 1917....

How about this as a Novel Concept:

SLOPPY sources that did NOT know what they were talking about

I know this is a Gigantic Leap Of Faith now, so get ready

REALLY

do not have a CLUE what they are babbling about-- online or in print?

:ninja:

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

I googled it again, it is a pretty kosher source, the Liddle Hart library for his bio, the silly claim for the EK from a forum.

I think we can safely assume that he did serve in 04, just a question of did he get an award, and if so, what one.

[Ulsterman]

Guys,

He did not get the EK2 because that wasn't authorized until 5.8.1914 and even then it was awarded in Namibia to German forces/veterans as a cloth award until the real ones were handed out in the 1920/21 winter. Gordon MacGregors' book by the way is excellent on this subject, but his translation of the original statute of the 1914 EK raises and explains) a few issues.

(It is laced with detailed footnotes and an award roster, something I am glad to see in a medal book).

I suspect Ironside received either the AEZ or the merit medal on black/white ribbon. His career is VERY well established and so is this story.

He was not the sort of man to make up this sort of thing. Indeed, he was so accomplished- a legend in his own lifetime- that he downplayed his career exploits.

Write to King's College in London and they'll give you the details. They are VERY helpful.

Heck, they might even have his original award certificate.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Ulsterman

[lilo]

..............................I suspect Ironside received either the AEZ or the merit medal on black/white ribbon. His career is VERY well established and so is this story.

.........................................Write to King's College in London and they'll give you the details. They are VERY helpful. Heck, they might even have his original award certificate.

Hi Ulsterman,

I apologise for the stupid questions but having a quite scarce (if any) knowledge on German medals may I ask you what are the 'AEZ' and the 'Merit Medal on black/white ribbon' you are refferring to ?

(a link to see how these two medals look like should be very appreciated).

I have tried to find a correct email address to try to contact the King`s College London but I'm not convinced of what I have found. Can you, please, supply it ?

Again Many Thanks to All for this great discussion

All the Best

Lilo

[lilo]

Hi All,

I have contacted Mr. McGregor (the author of the book previously mentioned on this post) and following is the prompt and kind answer I received :

"""""""""""""Dear Mr. Lilo,

Thanks for the email. After doing a lot of research into German Colonial medals specifically German South West Africa I cannot believe that the Germans would award one of their medals to a foreigner and even less if he was in the transport section run by the Boers and which was not an integral part of the Schutztruppe!

During my research into the awarding of the Kalahari 1907 bar and medal I came across many letters written by senior German Colonial Administrators stating that the awarding of German Medals to foreigners degraded the German medal system and thus they would not recommend any awards to foreigners. The awarding of the Kalahari 1907 bar and medal was done when the Kaiser while on an official state visit to Great Britain and only occurred because the Kaiser and the King of Great Britain knew each other very well and the matter was discussed privately. The Kalahari awards would NEVER have taken place if it had to come from Windhoek. The Kaiser wanted to smooth relations between Germany and Great Britain as they were in an Battle Ship race against each other. Read my book ?German Medals, British Soldiers and the Kalahari Desert? in which there is a whole chapter on why the medal was awarded to the British soldiers.

Now, based on my knowledge gained through reading many German files in the archives and having an insight into the methodology of the German Colonial Officials I do not believe that they would award the AEZ to a lowly Boer wagon driver not even in the Schutztruppe but providing a transport service to them.

Regards,

Gordon McGregor

Windhoek

Namibia""""""""""""""

I think the above can be of some interest as a follow up of the discussion.

All the Best

Lilo

Edited January 12, 2009 by lilo

[Chris Boonzaier]

Some things to ponder though....

In 1904 South Africa and Germany (and Britain) were not in a state of war at all.

The borders were on paper only and Boers wondered backwards and forwards as they liked.

There really was not much at all to spy ON at that time.

GSWA consisted of a few scattered schutztruppen units, some railway lines and a few small settlements..... nothing to hide, nothing to find.

That he participated in the war as a driver, very possible, but I very, very, very much doubt he was passing for a Boer.

Lets be realistic... anyone who has learned a foreign language gets very frustrated when the neighbour says "Well, my nephew John was a month in France and came home fluent in the language.... why does it take you years?"

And you know that John can ask the way to the bathroom but needs to use sign language and make groaning sounds and squat to let a local know what he is asking....

Boer Dutch/Afrikaans did not even have text books in 1900... how did he learn the language in London? Anyone who has been to South Africa will know that your average Brit who moves down there could spend 50 years and still never be mistaken for a Boer/Afrikaaner...

Seen that way, I think the REAL story is still not clear here... I would bet he DID work behind Boer lines in the war... but maybe not AS a Boer? Why would he try to do the impossible.... there were German, Swedish, Irish, and even American volunteers on the Boer side... surely easier to pretend to be one of them....?

And a wondering Boer in GSWA? a very aloof and standoffish, SUSPICIOUS lot of people.... I would very much doubt that with even 4 years in country you could pass for one of them.... But there are tales of Irishmen and even the odd British deserter in the area... maybe if he passed as one of them?

I am sure there is a real story, I would now not even doubt he may have gotten a medal of some sort.... but I think the story has been added to, changed, polished, gotten tarnished, repaired and cleaned over the last 100 years and all parts may no longer be original.....

Best

Chris

[Ulsterman]

Some things to ponder though....

In 1904 South Africa and Germany (and Britain) were not in a state of war at all.

The borders were on paper only and Boers wondered backwards and forwards as they liked.

There really was not much at all to spy ON at that time.

GSWA consisted of a few scattered schutztruppen units, some railway lines and a few small settlements..... nothing to hide, nothing to find.

That he participated in the war as a driver, very possible, but I very, very, very much doubt he was passing for a Boer.

Lets be realistic... anyone who has learned a foreign language gets very frustrated when the neighbour says "Well, my nephew John was a month in France and came home fluent in the language.... why does it take you years?"

Seen that way, I think the REAL story is still not clear here... I would bet he DID work behind Boer lines in the war... but maybe not AS a Boer? Why would he try to do the impossible.... there were German, Swedish, Irish, and even American volunteers on the Boer side... surely easier to pretend to be one of them....?

And a wondering Boer in GSWA? a very aloof and standoffish, SUSPICIOUS lot of people.... I would very much doubt that with even 4 years in country you could pass for one of them.... But there are tales of Irishmen and even the odd British deserter in the area... maybe if he passed as one of them?

I am sure there is a real story, I would now not even doubt he may have gotten a medal of some sort.... but I think the story has been added to, changed, polished, gotten tarnished, repaired and cleaned over the last 100 years and all parts may no longer be original.....

All true:

However, Ironside was a real hero's hero and nobody's' fool.

Reading about his ruthlessness in 1939/40 and his relationship with Churchill, one wonders how Chaimberlain survived a day in office after October, 1939.

He was, indirectly, partly the inspiration for Indiana Jones.

His papers are at Kings' College along with his diary. You never know-we have been surprised before (see the Askari/Egypt group below).

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

I dont suggest HE got it wrong... I believe it has been twisted by 4 generations of Authors, Warlord story writers, bloggers, wikipedia contributers to the point where someone who knows little about South Africa 1898-1907 understood something wrongly, passed it on to someone who changed it, heard by a third person who was half drunk and forgot half, who added some details before telling it to a guy who wrote editorials for "Victor" comics.

best

Chris