Rare Egypt bar

[Chris Boonzaier]

I found this one in cairo.

it is unnamed (not erased) and a couple of folks have said that means it has come from the mint, but I doubt that. I dont think they put bars on before knowing who to name them to and there are knocks on the lefthand side that seem to point to it having been worn with a star of some kind.

maybe to an Egyptian and they were not to pedantic with the naming?

[Chris Boonzaier]

back

[Chris Boonzaier]

So... anyone have any ideas as to why it is worn, ergo.. issued... but without a name?

[peter monahan]

So... anyone have any ideas as to why it is worn, ergo.. issued... but without a name?

Chris

Not my speciality and many years since I was really up on details but I do not think the British ever issued unnamed medals in this period: you earned the medal (named) with one or more bars and later bars if any came looose and were added by wearer. Hence the many wild and wonderful arrangements of rivers, wire, pins, balin twine and spit on multibar medals, especally to Indian and Afrcian troops.

Best guess (mine, I mean): the recipeint lost his named medal and bought or otherwise "acquired" an unnamed specimen - which did come out of the mint not uncommonly for various reasons, including replacing lost gongs - and wore it next to his Khedive's Star. Th Star was a BIG bronze job which always marked up the Egypt and you almost always see both together if the group's not broken because the conditions for earning the two are very very close. (ie, in theory, you could earn one or the other but in fact it was rare not to qualify for both)

My tuppence worth. Still good beer here!

Peter

[Chris Boonzaier]

But Sudan medals (for instance) to Egyptians were named in Arab writing, so i assume it was done there. The Brits must have sent them a pile of the things to name up.

Theoretically the same could have happeded with the Egypt medal. They sent them to be named and the odd one was handed out because by the time it got to the unit there was noone able to name them, or they just tossed them to those who were supposed to get them.

Sheer supposition on my part, but SOMETHING must have happened...

[Kev in Deva]

name='Chris Boonzaier' post='137146' date='Jan 6 2007, 20:48 ']But Sudan medals (for instance) to Egyptians were named in Arab writing, so i assume it was done there. The Brits must have sent them a pile of the things to name up.

Theoretically the same could have happeded with the Egypt medal. They sent them to be named and the odd one was handed out because by the time it got to the unit there was noone able to name them, or they just tossed them to those who were supposed to get them.

Sheer supposition on my part, but SOMETHING must have happened...

Hallo Chris, with regards this medal and bar I located this online:

28. Egypt, 1882?1889.?Awarded by Queen Victoria, 1882. Obverse: Head of Queen Victoria as in the West African Medal. Legend: VICTORIA REGINA ET IMPERATRIX. Reverse: A Sphinx; above, EGYPT; below, 1882. Ribbon: Blue, with two white stripes, forming five i-inch stripes (Plate I.).

Clasps: ALEXANDRIA, 11th July;. TEL-EL-KEBIR, SUAKIN, 1884; ELTEB, TAMAAI, EL-TEB-TAMAAI,

THE NILE, 1884?85; ABU KLEA, KIRBEKAN, SUAKIN, 1885; TOFREK, GEMAIZAH, 1888; TOSKI, 1889.

This medal was first awarded (Admiralty Circular, Oct. 1882 ; G.O. by the commander-in-chief, Oct. 17, 1882; and G.O. by governor-general of India, Oct. 27, 1882); to all the Forces, naval and military, present and serving in Egypt between July 16, and Sep. 14, 1882.

The first two clasps were also given with this issue. One military officer (Major-General Sir A. B. Tulloch, then of the Welsh Regiment) received the clasp " Alexandria, 11th July," as he was serving in the fleet as military adviser to Admiral Sir Beauchamp Seymour. A second issue was made in 1884, and with it the next four clasps were given; " Suakin, 1884," for those who landed at Suakin or Trinkitat between Feb. 19 and March 26, 1884, was, however, only given to those with the 1882 medal, those not so possessed receiving the medal without a clasp.

A third issue was made in 1885, the next five clasps accompanying it. The Nile; 1884?85," was given to those who served south of Assouan on or before March 7, 1885; " Suakin, 1885," to those who were engaged in the operations at Suakin between March and May 14, 1885; but the former clasp was only to go to those already possessed of the medal, others received the medal only.

The medal alone was also given to all on duty at Suakin between March 27, 1884, and May 14, 1885. No medals were issued with single clasps' for " Tofrek," recipients of which also got clasp " Suakin, 1885," or " Abu Klea " and "Kirbekan," recipients of which got also clasp " The Nile, 1884?85."

In 1886, the medal without was' issued to those who had not previously received it and had served at, and south of Wady Haifa, between Nov. 30, 1885 and Jan. 11, 1886, but no clasps went with this issue, although the operations included the battle of Ginnis.

The last issue was made in 1890. The medal with clasp " Gemaizah, 1888 ," to all who were present at that action near Suakin, Dec. 20, 1888; the medal alone to all employed on the Nile at, and south of Korosko, on Aug. 3, 1889, and with clasp "Toski, 1889," to all present at that action, Aug. 3, 1889.

Besides those already enumerated who received the medal without clasp, it was given to officers of hired transports of the mercantile marine, to some civilians, native and European, to the Australian contingent that landed at Suakin, and to the Canadian boatmen employed on the Nile. In fact, not far short of fifty thousand of these "medals have been struck, and the numbers issued have exceeded that of any other medal with the exception of that given for the South African War. Seven clasps: " Tel-el-Kebir," " Suakin, 1884 "; " El-Teb-Tamaai " " The Nile, 1884?85 "; " Abu Klea " " Gemaizah, 1888 " ; and "Toski, 1889," were awarded to one officer, Major Beech, late 10th Hussars, who also received the Bronze Star with the clasp Tokar, 1890."

The medal with six clasps was earned by four men of the 19th Hussars who were Lord Wolseley's orderlies, and who after having earned the first five clasps enumerated in Major Beech's medal, went with Lord Wolseley to Suakin and so got the " Suakin, 1885 " clasp.

From / Source: http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/correction/e...ontent_id=19639

ALSO:

"The Mahdi died of smallpox in June, 1885, and was succeeded by Khalifa Abdullah el Taashi. From 1885 to December, 1888, there was considerable fight?ing in Egypt and the Sudan for which no bars were awarded, so we can skip that period and return to Suakin in December, 1888, where General Sir Francis Grenfell had arrived with a combined British and Egyptian force, which was as usual surrounded by dervishes. On 20th December he made a sortie and defeated them at Gemaizah, after which the troops at Suakin were again withdrawn except for a small garrison."

From / Source: http://www.pinetreeweb.com/bp-brother-baden-egypt.htm

I hope its some help.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited January 7, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Chris Boonzaier]

Anyone want to take a stab as to what this one is worth?

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Chris

Medal Yearbook of 2006, page152 lists the following:

EGYPT MEDAL 1882 - 1889.

With "Gemaizah" 1888 bar,

listed at GB Pounds 280 - 350 for the Large Size Medal.

Note: if awarded to a "Native" then its mentioned they are worth approxamatly

25% less than if issued to a British Soldier.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Chris Boonzaier]

I assume a virgin unnamed must be worth as much as a "native" one as some guys would need it as a filler.

You think it would bring about GBP220?

Best

Chris

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Chris,

I think it depends on who would be interested, if for example its an Ebay UK or USA auction and there are 3-5 guys interested the price could go higher.

I would try a start price of GB 250 including postage by Registed Airmail worldwide to the winning bidders address and see what happens from there.

But then again as Daffy Duck said I am a greeeedy little duck!!!

Kevin in Deva.

[Tiger-pie]

I have a pair to a Royal Marine from the HMS Superb, clasp ALEXANDRIA, 11th July, and I got that for $800 dollars Aust. last year.

Regards;

Johnsy

Edited June 28, 2007 by Tiger-pie

[Ed_Haynes]

Why this is unnamed is a puzzle. Away from my notes, I think this medal (unlike the Queen's Sdan or any of the later Egyptian medals) was named in English with merely a regimental number when given to Egyptian 'allied' troops. (BB&M is far from reliable on such details of non-European naming.) I'd suspect a mint escapee or later replacement which no one wanted to bother to pay to get named. (The authorities became, over the decades, quite cranky about replacement medals.)

Value? Hard to say. Unnamed medals are not much more than a curiosity, holding no research interest. Surely less than one named to a native (of the British Isles), to an Indian, or to an Egyptian. Unless, of course, someone wanted one unnamed, to "splice" into a group missing one, for example (and then to invent a tall tale to cover the presence of a rogue unnamed medal).

[Chris Boonzaier]

Why this is unnamed is a puzzle. Away from my notes, I think this medal (unlike the Queen's Sdan or any of the later Egyptian medals) was named in English with merely a regimental number when given to Egyptian 'allied' troops. (BB&M is far from reliable on such details of non-European naming.) I'd suspect a mint escapee or later replacement which no one wanted to bother to pay to get named. (The authorities became, over the decades, quite cranky about replacement medals.)

Value? Hard to say. Unnamed medals are not much more than a curiosity, holding no research interest. Surely less than one named to a native (of the British Isles), to an Indian, or to an Egyptian. Unless, of course, someone wanted one unnamed, to "splice" into a group missing one, for example (and then to invent a tall tale to cover the presence of a rogue unnamed medal).

Hi,

Strangely enough, I have seen a total of three unnamed egypt medals over the last couple of years. All have been with this bar.

We very, very, very rarely see unnamed Victorian campaign medals (that are supposed to have been named). The fact that the three all have this bar, and that this one was found in the Souq, make me tend to think that the mint route is unlikely.

Could it be that one of the Egyptian units who qualified for the bar got some unnamed medals? i.e. maybe the mint could not get the details of the names for some subunit and just thought... "bugger it... just send them unnamed" ?

I would not agree that unnamed is worthless, that would mean a DSO, MC and unnamed Crimea are worth nothing, equally so many of the Indian WW2 groups that were unnamed.

Agreed, my "thing" is research so I would not have much fun with this, but many collectors have a cased MC that they like to have... and dont know who wore it....

Back to the mint thought... I assume these medals got their bars once they knew what combination was needed for a certain soldier, makes no sense to whack on bars before you know what is needed. And what are the chances that the only three unnamed ones I see all have the same bar?

Like I said, I seriously think some Egyptian unit got them without names for whatever reason. I am sure the naming authority in Cairo was not as pedantic as the British?

[Ed_Haynes]

My impression (= never seen this in the sources) is that the 1882 Egypt awards to Egyptains were named in the UK (as Egypt was after all in rebellion against the British and their collaborating 'friends' had their gongs UK-named), while later (e.g., Sudan) medals were named in country (and usually in a language relevant to the soldiers, as these awards were merely in addition to their own country's awards). I could be wrong, and would be happy to be proved wrong, but from sources not guessing. I have asked friends to have their students seek in the revelant archives (Cairo) and so far zero.

Owain?????

A medal that was rarely named (e.g. MC or 1939-45 Star [with exceptions]) found unnamed is no surprise to anyone, while one supposed to be named (e.g. Egypt 1882) that isn't tends to become a curiosity, absent evidence. Sad but true (unless someone seeks it to fill a 'gap').

[Guest Rick Research]

How about one to a German General Staff officer?

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24015

[Michael Johnson]

Sudan Medals show in Arabic the unit number and the regimental number. No naming as such (at least from the one I owned). My memory is bad, but I think the Egypt Medal is also in Arabic, but also has the name - but I could be wrong. I never owned one, just British and Indian Armies.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Mark A Reid on BMF may have solved it...

I've been analysing the Egyptian Army medal rolls and studying as many examples as I can lately and have begun to draw a few conclusions as follows;

- Egypt Medals to the Egyptian Army for the earlier campaigns, Nile Expedition, Suakin 1884 and 1885, were named in the UK in English and then shipped to Egypt for distribution. Many examples simply had the man's number and his unit, no name or rank, officers had their name, rank and unit.

- Later issues, with the bars Gemaizah and Toski, appear to have been sent to Egypt un-named. There is a wide variety of naming, some is quite beautifully done with delicate, curved Arabic writing. However, I have seen examples to the IXth Soudanese Bn. which look as though they were named with an old bayonet, in Arabic script again.

I don't know why un-named examples appear on the market but I wouldn't be surprised if they were issued that way. Individual soldier's identity wasn't viewed in the same way that we see it and many Egyptian medal rolls simply give a list of numbers, names not being perceived as important. I think it quite likely that some Egyptian units simply issued the medals " out of the box " and those that escaped the melting pot eventually found their way to the Grand Bazaar.

[oamotme]

Gentlemen,

To add to this interesting thread I recently purchased in Riyadh the following:

• Egypt Medal 1882-9, undated, Clasps The Nile 1884-5, Gemaizah 1888, Toski 1889,
• Named to ?Sub.Lieut. Hassan Tanfick 3^rd Bn. Inf.? - ?340.

and taking into account the previous comments I woud suggest that this is one of the early medals issued, engraved in UK and presented to the recipient with the clasp The Nile 1884-5, and at a later stage presented with the clasps for Gemaizah and Toski. On referring to British Battles and Medals no mention is made of the 3rd Bn. Inf., however study of the actual rolls would clarify this. The rank is an odd one and indeed from knowledgeable contacts in the UK I am advised that an engraved example to an Egyptian officer must be a somewhat scarce piece. The price paid was not cheap but in light of what little research I have been able to make does seem fair. Oh and yes it is pitted but as worn by an Egyptian the Khedive's star has pitted the the left of the medal. I am assuming that to make a pair I would need to add the 1882-4 Khedives star??

Finally I have an named Arabic example with the clasps for Gemaizah and Toski - crudely engraved, in Arabic, with the sole name Ahmed - a bit like having a General Service Medal engraved with the name John!

Owain

Edited January 2, 2008 by oamotme

[Paul R]

Gentlemen,

To add to this interesting thread I recently purchased in Riyadh the following:

• Egypt Medal 1882-9, undated, Clasps The Nile 1884-5, Gemaizah 1888, Toski 1889,
• Named to ?Sub.Lieut. Hassan Tanfick 3^rd Bn. Inf.? - ?340.

and taking into account the previous comments I woud suggest that this is one of the early medals issued, engraved in UK and presented to the recipient with the clasp The Nile 1884-5, and at a later stage presented with the clasps for Gemaizah and Toski. On referring to British Battles and Medals no mention is made of the 3rd Bn. Inf., however study of the actual rolls would clarify this. The rank is an odd one and indeed from knowledgeable contacts in the UK I am advised that an engraved example to an Egyptian officer must be a somewhat scarce piece. The price paid was not cheap but in light of what little research I have been able to make does seem fair. Oh and yes it is pitted but as worn by an Egyptian the Khedive's star has pitted the the left of the medal. I am assuming that to make a pair I would need to add the 1882-4 Khedives star??

Finally I have an named Arabic example with the clasps for Gemaizah and Toski - crudely engraved, in Arabic, with the sole name Ahmed - a bit like having a General Service Medal engraved with the name John!

Owain

Owain,

Can you please post an image of this example?

[Ed_Haynes]

Owain was having trouble posting and asked for help, which I am glad to give.

Here it is.

A rather mundane three-clasp Egypt Medal (if there is such a thing as a 'mundane three-clasp Egypt Medal' ??).

The most interesting part, though, is the naming.

Also very interesting to see that he wore his medals properly, with the Egyptian star first and the foreign British medal second.

[oamotme]

Owain was having trouble posting and asked for help, which I am glad to give.

Here it is.

A rather mundane three-clasp Egypt Medal (if there is such a thing as a 'mundane three-clasp Egypt Medal' ??).

The most interesting part, though, is the naming.

Also very interesting to see that he wore his medals properly, with the Egyptian star first and the foreign British medal second.

Thanks Ed - if you ever get to Riyadh I'll buy you a beer, well at least a glass of Chateau Home Brew!

Owain

[922F]

In 1980, Fahmy Bichay had several "Egyptian" bars in his Cairo shop. I retain only scribbled notes but if they & memory serve, the earliest had a Medjidjie 4th class, 1 or 2 Ottoman campaign medals [ not sure which--those 22-25 mm. things], a Khedive's Star and a UK Egypt Medal 1882-9, Toski clasp. Both the Star & UK Egypt were named in Arabic. This medal group actually pertains to the question at hand and appears to support what has gone before here. I am indebted to you all for this stimulating & absorbing discussion & information.

My notes also describe Fahmy's other 1980 "shop groups" 1) Nile Officer, Khedive's Sudan '96 [2clasps], Khedive's Sudan '10 [3 clasps], UK Sudan [no clasp] {all medals named in Arabic, two (not sure WHICH 2!) with apparent unit designations} 2) Nile Officer, Khedive's Sudans for '96 [3 clasps], '10 {3? clasps], '18, [1 or 4 clasps] & UK Sudan [one clasp] {all medals named in Arabic, no apparent unit designations} AND 3) Nile Knight {or officer--this may have had a ribbon rosette that appeared added to the bar much later?}, Khedive's Sudan '96 [either 1 or no clasp can't read own handwriting], UK Sudan [no clasp], French Palmes Academiques, Bulgar St. Alex knight no crown. I do not know what clasps were on these various medals.

Jeff Jacob sold groups numbered 1 & 2 above in 1982 or '83. If anyone has his catalogs on hand, naming and clasp details will surely be provided in the lot listings. Sometime in those same years, he included an article titled something like "A visit with F Bichay" in his catalog. The article provided additional details about that delightful and courteous gentleman and information about his business----I do not have copies of those Jacob catalogs.

In the '80s, Cairo's Khan el-Khalali coin/medal/silver vendors had a fair number of Khedive Sudan medals and I'd estimate that 1/3 to 1/2 were named in Arabic -- usually, as Owain says, very crudely most with just a [one word] name and rarely with a one or two word name and maybe rank. Hate to report post "negotiation" sale prices then were about double scrap silver value. Last year in Khartoum, nothing to be found for love or money--well, maybe for love! Some Khan el-Khali dealers appeared to have fake {cast} Sudan medals withut suspensions for sale at UK prices. Saw none with any kind of naming then.

On naming UK medals, I gave John Lelle an ex-Bichay set of 4 or 5 WWI & WWII medals including a BWM, Victory and Africa Star all named to "DUMMY". John enjoyed the joke!! Have no idea what happened to the DUMMY's medals.

Edited January 3, 2008 by 922F

[oamotme]

Gentlemen,

I have just returned from a weekend in Sana'a, Yemen and amongst various bits and pieces purchased in the souk in the old city was the disc of an Egypt Medal, undated, and engraved to:

366 DRIV. SELAH FOSS

As an Arab (or so I thought but now not so sure) recipient this falls nicely into my collection and at $80 an interesting purchase. I would suppose that with some application I should be able to find out whether FOSS was with either British or Egyptian Forces and whether the medal was issued with or without clasps. The lack of unit does not make such research easy, however I am sure that it can wait until a rainy day.

Regards,

Owain.

P.S. Other purchases include General Service Medals, clasp "Arabian Peninsula" to Aden Protectorate Levies, Tribal Guards, Mukalla Regular Army & Qu'aiti Armed Constabulary, a Great War Medal in Bronze, with wrong suspension to Aden Labour Corps (impressed ADEN L.C. - no name) and a QEII large bronze medal, Aden issue, of the Certificate of Honour. All in all a good haul.

Edited January 19, 2008 by oamotme

[Ulsterman]

Ooooh-can we see the aden Labour Corps medal please??

[Ed_Haynes]

Nice ones, Owain. Sounds like you had fin in Sana'a, but it does have that reputation.