Harrier Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Very nice, isonzo! These crosses are, to me, the most attractive of German awards.Further to Jacques - I would think that of all the "drop-tail" eagles we see, over 95% are fake. I believe the real ones were created in error and confusion and out of a very real sense of intense business competition by German manufacturers trying to be "first out of the gate" and that SOME actually were sold and worn. The logic of such a possibility (to me, at least) makes every bit as much sense as any argument against it.The "4" mark is, indeed, the PKZ number assigned to S&L and although there is still some debate as to the time of first use, I personally agree that it was in 1941 and later. I find its use on the pin of the variant, however, not at all distressing. While S&L certainly switched to the "correct" eagle at some point, it almost certainly could have had unfinished planchets of the earlier design still in the factory and could have added the pin at any time to a few to complete pieces for commercial (LDO) sale. I doubt seriously that anyone really cared enough to object, especially as the war went on and on.Scott - The Next-of-Kin case is, to me, a perfect example of a manufacturer making something because of something it had seen or heard which made it believe that the design would use the down-tail eagle. I still find it intriguing that the Doehle illustration (which is indeed, as Jacques pointed out, a good drawing) shows alternating "drop-tail, swoop-tail, drop-tail, swoop-tail" eagles circling the swastika. That certainly would have been a perfect way to "bring together" the years of service in Spain from 1936 to 1939. Edited February 21, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235254519.jpgHere is a little closer photo of the variant eagle on the S&L "souvenir board" Spanish cross shown previously.For what it is worth (maybe nothing), all these boards (and there were several, each with a different selection of awards) have been listed for sale on the "emedals" site, with authentication by Detlev Niemann. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Sorry for the multiple replies, but here is the link to the variant Spanish Cross being sold by "emedals" (the board contents have now been broken down into individual pieces). http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRL594And here is the link, on that same site, to another "4" piece, with the "regular" eagles. Compare the soldering, which seems to me to be almost identical. http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRL590#bigPic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Another interesting thing about Juncker Spanish Crosses is the use of the 'CEJ' mark, which stopped being used on their aircrew badges by 1937. One would expect to see the later 'CE Juncker Berlin SW' mark on Juncker badges manufactured in late '38/early '39.I know EMedals and DN have a close working relationship, but I've seen more than one suspect item on the Emedals site, which gives me pause on anything I see there. Edited February 22, 2009 by Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Sorry for the multiple replies, but here is the link to the variant Spanish Cross being sold by "emedals" (the board contents have now been broken down into individual pieces). http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRL594And here is the link, on that same site, to another "4" piece, with the "regular" eagles. Compare the soldering, which seems to me to be almost identical. http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRL590#bigPicThese board are a bit controversed. I remember to have read somewhere that they had been builded up with not only S&L medals, but that's not the topic. I saw these on Emedal, and I'm a bit surprised to see a gold cross without swords I was thinking to one possible explaination: I'm still convinced that these drop tail eagles are post-war, but look at the eagles used on the medals bar ribbons of the " Lw Dienstmedaille". It could be possible they used this kind of eagle, it seem they have quite the same size as the common SC one. they could have took temporally what was available at the very moment for a couple of crosses?? this could explain (partially) the quality of the eagles on some crosses; crosses which retain an original body. But if it the case, It concern only a very low number of crosses.jacques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isonzo Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 backsideBestisonzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) isonzo, Those are beautiful crosses! Your second one appears to be a very close match to the unknown manufacturer I showed in my Post#13, so maybe Jacques will have somemore data for his files. Our collective information grows! Jacques, I also have thought about the possible use of ribbon bar devices for these eagles, but I have very many examples of these devices and have never found one that was the exact correct size or thickness for this use. I suppose, though, that there could be some. I just haven't seen them. The "boards" are comprised of awards which appear to have been manufactured SOLELY by Ludenscheid companies, according to the pieces which have been identified by other collector specialists (such as Tom Durante). The Ludenscheid "connection" is the common thread, and these match boards found by other collectors obtained in the immediate postwar months and brought back by veterans. Believed to have been assembled by factory workers, many times using placemats from factory canteens, to provide a source of income in those hard times. All badges so far identified appear to be leftover original factory stock. I think we can agree that there are mysteries still to be solved regarding the genesis of the first Spanish Crosses and the real-life workings of commercial manufacturers. The "brilliants" set I posted is, of course, not a Godet and does not pretend to be (as do so many other copies). The design is very obviously different. The physical characteristics of the badge, however, are correct for the larger size "brilliants" award: Height: 58.72 mm Width: 58.40 mm Length of swords: 63.52 mm Width of central disc: 16.70 mm Weight: 39.06 g (badge marked '900' on body, '800' on pin) The cross is die-struck, not cast. So we are left with very, very many poorly made badges, generally cast and with poor detail, which are certainly fakes and would never be accepted as original badges (even without the eagle design) and a very, very few badges which are well made, have very good detail and design and, except for the eagle shape, would be accepted in the ordinary course as original badges. These lead me to the PERSONAL conclusion that a few of these badges were made, by mistake, and put "into the stream of commerce". The manufacture of a very few "wearing copies" of the "brilliants" by companies other than Godet does not surprise me (even if not a single one sold), simply because these companies considered themselves to be part of the "elite" of badge manufacturers and would feel compelled by pride to "have a horse in the race". Again, and speaking only for myself, I will continue to pursue Spanish Crosses because I consider them to be wonderful badges, and if I see a well-made badge with "drop-tail" eagles, I will (if I am able) try to obtain it, too. As another note, I have always understood that the gold badge, without swords, was also made in limited quantity (again, based on manufacturers "jumping the gun" and thinking there would be 3 classes, each with and without swords) but never awarded. I have a crested Meybauer cross without swords which certainly appears to be of the gold class, and I will take some photos today and post them here. Best, Harrier Edited February 22, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235319871.jpgActually, I didn't have far to look because I already had some photos of the Meybauer in my files!From the back, it appears to be a standard bronze without swords (the swords having been factory removed, as I understand Meybauer did). From the front, however, it appears to be of the gold class and the finish is much, much brighter. This cross is in the exact condition I obtained it from a vet many years ago and has not been cleaned or "dipped" . I have no explanation for its appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Edited February 23, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Nice cross Harrier,Difficult to give an opinion on a picture and an explaination concerning the two tones cross. May be the cross was exposed several years to the light while the reverse remained protected. colour varies from dark bronze to gold bronze , for the same manufacturer. I suppose it depended of the colour of the bath, but why two- tones ?We still have much to learn, discover and elucidate on the spanish crosses...the regulations RGB are very clear concerning the different classes.jacques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235322772.jpgJacques, The color is a mystery to me and you may be right that it was exposed to sunlight. Here are 2 more photos I just now took in daylight. Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 It is a nice bronze cross, those which were officially awarded.jacques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) An interesting view from the side, showing where the sword used to be.P.S. This photo actually shows the true obverse color of the cross better than my others! Edited February 24, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235330114.jpgLove that "German precision"! Cross upside down and no mention of those w/o swords! (Jacques' photo) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_02_2009/post-2778-1235330114.jpgLove that "German precision"! Cross upside down and no mention of those w/o swords! (Jacques' photo)this picture s from a period newspaper. Here is one of the pages dealing with the spanish cross institution from the "RGB". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Very interesting, Jacques! I think this same photo montage also appeared in Der Adler. Do you happen to have any of the "Schwert und Spaten" publications mentioning this before April, 1939? For award ceremonies just 2 months later, these early producers must have been very busy indeed (as you have already noted). I believe Forman has recently noted that some recipients of the "Brilliants" class did not receive their pieces on schedule because they simply weren't ready from Godet.It would be fascinating to have more knowledge of just how industry geared up for these awards and how the early makers were chosen. Edited February 22, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 I've the new Forman's book. It is interesting with very nice pictures, either I don't agree all what he wrote.Concerning Diamonds, period pictures exist showing recipients during and just after the ceremony (May 31th). It seems that posthume recipients did receive the same cross. I don't know for the two last ones, Galland and Balthasar, but I don't see why they couldn't had received the same. Godet made these crosses. 2 patterns exist from this manufacturer, silver gilded and tombac gilded.jacques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Yes, the new Forman book does have very nice photos. He seems to base some of his statements on personal encounters and interviews and seems to be pretty positive regarding Godet's inability to produce all the awards on time. There may be some things, I suppose, we will never have "officially" confirmed.I am still interested in "trade" reports regarding these decorations before they were "announced" by the government formally. I will check with friends who have copies of "Schwert und Spaten", "Uniform-markt" and other publications and see what they can find.Best,HarrierP.S. Nice to see that ALL the officers receiving the "Brilliants" still have down-tail eagles on their uniforms. :rolleyes: Edited February 22, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 P.S. Nice to see that ALL the officers receiving the "Brilliants" still have down-tail eagles on their uniforms. They just wear the uniform they had before to go to Spain. These guys came back from Spain 1937-1938 and worn their previous LW uniforms. those who made the last turn still wear the LC brown uniform, like Richthofen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Some of them were promoted (including Moelders) while they were in Spain and at least had time to have their new collar tabs sewn on. Actually, I am just having fun. Many officers continued to wear their old eagles for several years. Moelders continued to wear his (at least on some uniforms) up to the time of his death in November, 1941. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) This '4' marked beauty can be yours for only $15,000 (plus commission, shipping, handling, insurance, etc.) from Manions... In the lower photo above, would the second officer from the left be Gunther Lutzow? Edited February 23, 2009 by Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 (edited) A shame to have ruined what may have been a perfectly nice cross. Just look at the spacing on the stones! On the photo, #2 does indeed look like Lutzow. Edited February 23, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 No, he is not L?tzow. L?tzow was promoted Hauptmann on Nov 1937.I guess he is Schlichting.jacques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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