ScottP Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Rick:I have started this thread in order to continue our offline discussion about the Sahlendar ribbon bar. Images and descriptions of what we have discussed are attached.First - Sahlender's portrait: Edited February 22, 2009 by ScottP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Here is his actual uniform - absent any awards. The location of his original awards is not known. While reconstructing the badges is easy from reading his personnel file from the National Archives, his ribbon bar has been problematic since his personnel file does not make direct reference to all ribbons worn, nor does the single known portrait of him clearly show the ribbons on the bar. Edited February 22, 2009 by ScottP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 This image is an enlargement of his ribbon bar. With help from his personnel file and some friends/collectors, we have identified (l. to r.): EK II, Bulgarian Order of Military Merit with Crown and Swords, Bulgarian Military Bravery Order with Swords and the Rumanian Crusade Against Communism Medal. Thus, the two middle ribbons are the same light blue with silver strpes along the edges, but different attachment devices.With respect to the crown/swords and swords, it appears the former is German vs Bulgarian...probably imperial, and the latter is German as well...probably a set from a KVK II. I am informed that such miniature devices were not often used by Bulgarian officers, so German awardees usually used German devices.Thus - in color, his bar would have looked like the reconstructed image (except devices in gold, vs silver). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) In an effort to reconstruct his ribbon bar - since the odds of finding an examle of this exact combination are slim to none - I have obtained this 4-space bar as the basis of the reconstruction as well as the four ribbons, and a crown and sword device (ie, the one on this bar with the Hohenzollern ribbon). Still to get is an appropriate swords, as the WW I one attached to this bar does not compare well with that in the portrait of Sahlender - i.e., the angle of the Frontkampfer swords is too steep in my opinion from what I can see in his portrait. Edited February 22, 2009 by ScottP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 So...with what appears to be the means to easily disassemble and reassemble to acquired ribbon bar, and having the appropriate replacement ribbons and devices, I think I can complete the reconstruction of all of Sahlender's badges and medals. You agree? or am I missing anything?Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 one more image of Sahlender's uniform...from an angle similar to his portrait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I agree the second ribbon is a Bulgarian Military Merit Order on the war ribbon, which as a Captain at the time would have been officer class, so gold device. He appears to have had the rather unusual separate crown over swords not much in use then.But that third ribbon I'm thinking is a Romanian decoration. The Germans normally used a red ribbon with blue edges that had PREVIOUSLY been the Romanian war ribbon until superceded in the late 1930s by their own fancy bullion striped ones. German effects dealers just kept using the old, wrong ribbon.I'm pretty sure that's what's in 3rd place-- like the two ( ) found on this bar:(The first is on a FRENCH style Commander grade "barrette" )The Wehrmacht plowed through Yugoslavia and Greece so fast, I really can't conceive of TWO Bulgarian awards being made. Odds are highest that 3rd ribbon's Romanian. I'm seeing the darker edges on that one while the 2nd ribbon is a "solid" light blur under the complicated devices. I'd hold off to be CERTAIN. :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Rick: Thanks. Now that you point that out...I see what you see: the darker bands. It also makes more sense that he'd have two Rumanian awards (at least, NOT have two Bulgarian awards) since he had two jobs with the Rumanians: one in a Nachrichten Lehr and then later with I Rumanian Corps.I was afraid that crown was a separate piece...what are the odds of fnding one of those? along with the swords?scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 That will be tough. Some sneaky corner tobacconist/ribbon bars while you wait shop stuck him with OLD stock! Don't worry-- I'm always looking for such odds and ends. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Haynes Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'd hope that "reconstructing" this ribbon bar won't involve the wanton destruction of a real and historic ribbon bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Ed: ....which is how my conversation with Rick began...is there another method to reconstruct the bar from original parts? I am open to suggestions....but determined to display the uniform as it appeared in the portrait.scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 We'll work something out. I probably have a "bare" 4 backing and know I have the WW2 swords. The actual ribbons to replace are the impediment, since it isn't clear what they were. But there is certainly enough unused ribbon stock floating around (still) to make a museum level obverse display possible.The object here is to create a FAITHFUL display of ACTUAL awards that go on a known individual's uniform. Any old ribbon bar won't do. There are enough never used old spare parts out there to make such a restoration project possible without doing anything to old real bars.Question only of time and patience. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 With the exception of the newly discovered Rumanian ribbon (and devices), I have loose ribbons for everything else....I am not in a big hurry at all...more interested as you say that I identify the bar correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I've rummaged around in my boxes of bags of scraps and can only come up with a 25mm width old Romanian generic war awards ribbon. But as soon as the glaciers recede (if?... ) we're into another shows season and will rummage through the bags of All Sorts to be found at those. I DO have 1 (exactly 1) separate pierced German gold crown and matching swords (in "Lorsa Brasil" cigar box-- remind me of this so I can find them again in the higglepiggle treasure trove ) which you can have when the Final Ribbon is found. I normally hold singletons in case I should ever need it (whatever "it" is) but for this sort of Museum Restoration they're yours, Scott. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Scott, I'm glad you made it over here - and yes, Rick is the man when it comes to ribbons. Most everything I know (lot's still to learn) I learned from him.Regards, Hardy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Rick: Thanks. That is generous and much appreciated. I will insist on paying for anything I receive, however. I'll be at the SOS next month with hopes of completing my search for the various parts.Hardy - your help to date has been invaluable...and I am happy you've found the thread. I've actually been a GMIC member a while, but never made time to check in, what with finishing writing my books on GD (publishing by Schiffer this year). Then...I thought of Rick and his in depth knowldege of ribbon bars to help me determine how I might reconstruct Sahlender's. It just took a little poking around the web communities to find where he now spends his time. My first thought was anything that had "Gentleman" in its title.scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 Rick and Hardy: Mission nearly accomplished. The SOS this year was a wealth of little ribbon bars and pieces (Ed - so I did not have to canibalize the original bar...and in fact, sold it) and I was able to get alomst everything I was lacking...just the individual crown (although a guy there had boxes of repro devices!). The bent swords seemed not to matter so much as they originals in the image are not real clear...andthey came on a two-piece bar mission one ribbon. Attached is the result...once I get the crown, I'll settle in the Bulgarian award on the bar and restore it to Sahlender's uniform.Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 PM me your mailing address and I'll send it out on Monday. With two separate devices, they both would have been attached with prongs flattened under the ribbon and on top of the usual 1-hole WW2 ribbon bar backing-- just like early WW1 ribbon bars that had no holes in the backing plate. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 Thanks...done. Yep...from poking my nose under a lot of ribbons, I was able to determine the prongs were not put through the hole but, as you state, splayed out on the reverse side of the ribbon.Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks to your collective generosity, I was able to reconstruct Major Sahlender's ribbon bar. In my opinion, it came out quite accurate. In any case, it completes the display of his uniform. I am attaching a series of images...including a few from Sahlender's personnel file from the National Archives.sincerely, scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 (edited) 2 Edited March 14, 2009 by ScottP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 :jumping: FAITHFULLY creating museum quality DISPLAY for the EXACT awards of a SPECIFIC person!I just get a fingernails on chalkboard sensation when a uniform has the WRONG awards on it. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Excellent!Hardy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 A few scans from his personnel record Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 The page with his official photo - taken in a Waffenrock when he was an officer candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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