Harrier Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 A closer view of the "buttonhole-less" lapel area. The holes could be added in the lapels and an extra buttonhole could also be added to the jacket body simply by folding the lapels back a bit. Add that fourth set of buttons ABOVE the top existing row,and then another, fifth set (plenty of room) and presto: a KM tunic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_03_2009/post-2778-1236813133.jpgI may be dead wrong, but here's what you get (in MY opinion) when you add an extra set of buttons to the lower area of a Bundesmarine tunic. (This photo was originally posted by Gordon from his trip to the fabulous Hamburg maritime museum.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 (edited) Kriegsmarine tunics have 4 (and sometimes 5) ACTUALLY FUNCTIONING rows of buttonson the front. Most, but not all, with the 4 button configuration, have a 5th, non-functioning set. Either the 4 or 5 configuration could also have another set under the lapels (at the notch area). This last set was purely a "fashion statement". Postwar Bundesmarine uniforms copied U.S. Navy button configuration, with 3 sets of buttons. To turn a BM tunic into a KM tunic, extra button rows MUST be added, either at the top or at the bottom. Almost invariably, if the buttons are added at the bottom, the last row will then be noticeably below the upper line of the lower pockets. Fortunately (for us), most BM tunics have lapels which are narrower than their wartime counterparts, so adding the extra set at the top will make the lapels look even narrower, as the initial fold of the lapel will have to start higher than originally intended by the tailor in order to have a functioning buttonhole above the top row of the 3 already in place. This is one of the reasons I fear conversion of other nation's tunics more than I fear conversion of a BM tunic.Now, go back and look at the tunics posted and envision in your mind the alterations, including button changes, which could be made. Edited March 11, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) Payton asked me to post these 4 photos for him. Edited March 12, 2009 by Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payton Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hi, Thank you Harrier for posting the pictures for me. This is the tunic which Iam hoping many of you out there could give your opinion on. It has all the earmarks of a Kriegsmarine tunic except the lower buttons are starting just below the pocket flap and their is no button holes on the lapels. Could it be just a tailors preference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-SPAIN Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) I may be dead wrong, but here's what you get (in MY opinion) when you add an extra set of buttons to the lower area of a Bundesmarine tunic. (This photo was originally posted by Gordon from his trip to the fabulous Hamburg maritime museum.)Harrier, thanks for the pictures, very interesting and a good investment to compare with other period tunics. I think that all of these tunics could be transformed to KM but you can detected with a hand inspection.I agree with you about this tunic, from pictures not WW2 original IMO, but you need a deep hand inspection to be sure, all of us have seen many private variations in German uniforms, many against regulations, so with pictures is not easy to be sure. I had the same feeling with this set that I was thiking to buy some time ago, but finally I passed of it. Same configuration of buttons and without the lapel holes. IMO the worst is not the the last buttons row is very low, is that the space beetwen the last two rows is smaller than beetwen the others, and why?, maybe because is added to a postwar tunic and thay couldn't do it lower ... I don't know but I had a bad feeling with this one. Edited March 12, 2009 by KM-SPAIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-SPAIN Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hi, Thank you Harrier for posting the pictures for me. This is the tunic which Iam hoping many of you out there could give your opinion on. It has all the earmarks of a Kriegsmarine tunic except the lower buttons are starting just below the pocket flap and their is no button holes on the lapels. Could it be just a tailors preference?Payton, the general view of the tunic and the configuration look OK, the lower buttons row is not too low so could be only a tailor preference and the lack of the button holes in the lapels could be also by this, not usual but you can find. But to be honest with you if I have to decide ti buy this one, I'm not very confortable with it by the pictures, this kind of fabric doesn't like me for a KM reefer jacket and the back of the collar doesn't like me too much, but as told before with pictures is not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Eduardo, I agree with you 100% that there are variations and the best way is a complete hand inspection! I have spent many, many hours looking at photographs and examining real tunics to try to get a "feel" for these things. Although I have seen a very few tunics with buttons a LITTLE bit lower than normal, that has only been the exception, not the rule. Both the tunic from the museum and the chaplain tunic you posted are, to me, re-done postwar tunics and I would never be comfortable with them. Real KM tunics are always, in my experience, well-made and use very nice cloth. Every fake tunic has some "red flag" about it. As Rick Research noted, name tags (unless the officer was Reserve) are helpful in determining if the rank shown is even possible for what the tunic is supposed to be. My only rule is that if ANYTHING deviates from normal, the tunic must be looked at very, very closely. It may be fine or it may not. For Payton's tunic, I would need to see it in hand. To me, the buttons are a bit lower than I like to see, but the more important parts are the cloth and the construction of the collar, but of which "look" more modern to me than I am used to seeing. Again, I am NOT saying it is wrong for sure, but I would like to "feel" it to be comfortable. Best, Harrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KM-SPAIN Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Harrier, thanks again for your pictures and your feedbacks, I'm happy to see that we basically agree, and that is not always easy in the our collectors word.Payton, as we have said a bad feeling by pictures not always is right, a hand inspection always is a need. Anyway I would like to see pictures of the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payton Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hi, Thank you for all your input. The interior of this tunic is black satin like material and it has the white striped sleeves. Their is two interior pockets,one on each side. The outside material of this tunic is what I call a whipwool cord material. I am curious what are the usual outside materials of the tunics you come across are? From what I've collected on foriegn navy tunics and bundesmarine tunics it doesnt have the matching variations. I think that is why it puzzles me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Liontas Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Harrier, thanks for the pictures, very interesting and a good investment to compare with other period tunics. I think that all of these tunics could be transformed to KM but you can detected with a hand inspection.I agree with you about this tunic, from pictures not WW2 original IMO, but you need a deep hand inspection to be sure, all of us have seen many private variations in German uniforms, many against regulations, so with pictures is not easy to be sure. I had the same feeling with this set that I was thiking to buy some time ago, but finally I passed of it. Same configuration of buttons and without the lapel holes. IMO the worst is not the the last buttons row is very low, is that the space beetwen the last two rows is smaller than beetwen the others, and why?, maybe because is added to a postwar tunic and thay couldn't do it lower ... I don't know but I had a bad feeling with this one. I never did like the tabs on this tunic. Something about them just seemed off to me. I've a copy of Prof Klietman's Kriegsmarine uniform guide for Chaplains, and his definitely looked different than these. I was also lucky enough to get a pair of Probe tagged 1st type boards, and the embroidery was crisper on the laurel leaves (if this is the tunic I am thinking of) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payton Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hi, Well this has been an interesting subject as far as I can tell. It would have been nice to have tailor guide lines and regulations for W.W.II. It seems their is no expert advice but only our best conclusions on what is authentic and reproduction in this field. As time goes by we will only find more copies and hopefully these will be sorted out. Thank you for all your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesredep Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hello!Exist any list/guid about KM uniforms from the 1940-1945 ?All the bestNesredep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payton Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hi, I have never seen any existing guideline book for tailoring beside the basic books which just give an outline showing what and who wears what. But if their is one out there it would be a great piece to share with all us collectors. Especially if had exact measurements even if a tailor book from a store existed it would be really something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I've never seen a KM tailoring book out there, but know there are some for other uniforms (VERY expensive and VERY, VERY hard to find), so maybe they do exist. The 3 volume Angolia series on the Kriegsmarine is a must, but at the same time period photographs are a real key. I look at every one I can find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesredep Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Hello!I agree that period photos is the best reference we have to day. All the bestNesredep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Liontas Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I never did like the tabs on this tunic. Something about them just seemed off to me. I've a copy of Prof Klietman's Kriegsmarine uniform guide for Chaplains, and his definitely looked different than these. I was also lucky enough to get a pair of Probe tagged 1st type boards, and the embroidery was crisper on the laurel leaves (if this is the tunic I am thinking of)what a pair of real 1st types look like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Next up is the reefer jacket of Konteradmiral Heinrich Ruhfus, former Kommandant/Oslo and Kommandant/Toulon. Captain of the NIOBE at the time of her tragic sinking (still commemorated by the German Navy on July 26 of each year) and captain of the Konigsberg, also at the time of her sinking. He was court-martialled (and completely exonerated) after the NIOBE incident. Count von Luckner (the "Sea Devil" and former captain of the NIOBE) testified on Ruhfus' behalf, saying that there "was absolutely nothing" Ruhfus could have done to prevent the sinking, which claimed the lives of 69, including 50 cadets considered the "flower of the new Navy". Ruhfus was considered the "Mr. Chips" of the German Navy and was a much-beloved figure. His wife, following the NIOBE tragedy, almost had a nervous breakdown, as many of the lost cadets had spent weekends at the Ruhfus home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Main view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 The ribbon bar is NOT his, but as close as I had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Eagle (Celleon/ bullion mix). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrier Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Button under lapel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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