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Laurence Strong

belgian Order of Leopold l

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I see this thread is over a year since last entry so thought I would ask a question here and revive it a bit.

I have an item that uses a one piece center applied over the black enamel.  If you look carefully where I highlighted the points in green, you can see the lion is connected to the red scripted area and the whole center is actually mounted over the black enamel.  The lion has great detail but is quite thin in base material.

Any ideas?

Tim 

ool 1000.jpg

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Hi Tim,

With so many manufacturers of this Order, there were a great deal of variants in the details. As a very general summation, the one piece ribband-lion centres were normally found on the insignia of the higher classes (GC/GO/Com). Also, the older (some of the earlier Belgian and French manufactured examples) are often seen with this feature but of higher quality workmanship. Photo of my pre 1869, French manufactured Knight class with gold centre below.

Your example would likely be of considerably more recent vintage but quite interesting never the less.

 

pre1869 Knight.JPG

Edited by farmer

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Hi farmer,

Yes, its hard to compete with the quality of any order manufactured pre-1900.  Still, the quality of the enamel on this one is rather nice with a even translucent green that is much more appealing than some of later manufacture. What was interesting to me is the one piece ribband-lion center.  Prior to this example, I have only seen the lion separately applied to the black centers.

If you look closely at my example above, you can see the upper paw was accidently folded under the lion during the manufacturing/assembly process.  Unfortunately, it cannot be moved at this point as the metal is too thin. 

I purposely did not show the reverse as it has the letter "I" often associated with Wolfers but I honestly don't know if that's accurate information anymore?

Thank you for responding! :cheers:

Tim

Order of Leopold - Military Div - Knights w-palm 1.JPG

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Tim,

I think your was probably DeGreef's work - I have a couple examples that are identical and are cased (DeGreef firm stamp on the box). Usage of 'I' was not limited only to Wolfers, DeGreef and also other manufacturers used it (Chobillon in France too).

 

Ost-da, in my opinion your Officer was likely made between 1950s and as late as 1970s.

The Knight is much earlier. Long swords appeared officially after 1905 and this crown style was only commonly used by a couple of manufacturers. I would date your piece anytime between early WW1 and WW2.

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10 hours ago, farmer said:

Ost-da, in my opinion your Officer was likely made between 1950s and as late as 1970s

Thank you so much! 
The Roman one, may be on the reverse of the order of this period?

02.png

Edited by ost-da

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10 hours ago, farmer said:

 

The Knight is much earlier. Long swords appeared officially after 1905 and this crown style was only commonly used by a couple of manufacturers. I would date your piece anytime between early WW1 and WW2.

Unless that crown is not 1880?

02.png

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This crown 'type' was never linked to a particular vintage. It appeared in 1981 Borne's Belgian reference book but without much credence in regard to the years used (just a common belief as was circulated at the time of writing).  I own examples with such crown used with the post-1951 centres. In reality, Borne's so called "elargi, aplati,classique" crowns are just variants of a similar crown - all produced from late 1880s and into 1960s by at least 6 manufacturers.
 Get yourself a copy of Antti Ruokonen's book (Orders of Belgium), there is an extensive reference to crowns used with this order. You have to also consider other aspects of the insignia, manufacturers and a host of other features before one can make a reasonable educated statement regarding the period of usage. This topic is very deep, I am happy to give you my opinion (having researched and collected this Order for nearly 35 years and having several hundred examples in my collection).

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2 hours ago, farmer said:

This crown 'type' was never linked to a particular vintage. It appeared in 1981 Borne's Belgian reference book but without much credence in regard to the years used (just a common belief as was circulated at the time of writing).  I own examples with such crown used with the post-1951 centres. In reality, Borne's so called "elargi, aplati,classique" crowns are just variants of a similar crown - all produced from late 1880s and into 1960s by at least 6 manufacturers.
 Get yourself a copy of Antti Ruokonen's book (Orders of Belgium), there is an extensive reference to crowns used with this order. You have to also consider other aspects of the insignia, manufacturers and a host of other features before one can make a reasonable educated statement regarding the period of usage. This topic is very deep, I am happy to give you my opinion (having researched and collected this Order for nearly 35 years and having several hundred examples in my collection).

Thank you, you helped me a lot. Will share their knowledge with colleagues on the hobby in their country.
I asked you about the Roman one the orders with the motto in both languages. Could it be? I thought a Roman only one on order to WW2.

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I am not sure I follow: "I asked you about the Roman one the orders with the motto in both languages. Could it be? I thought a Roman only one on order to WW2. "

If you mean the French only inscriptions vs French and Flemish - dual languages were used after 1951 statutes revision.

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2 hours ago, farmer said:

If you mean the French only inscriptions vs French and Flemish - dual languages were used after 1951 statutes revision

My question. Number one may be on the reverse side of the order after 1951?

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Hello Gents,

Wondering if anyone has a spare lion for sale. Would like to restore this beauty

kind regards, Jef

P1040993.JPG

P1040997.JPG

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10 hours ago, ost-da said:

My question. Number one may be on the reverse side of the order after 1951?

Yes.

3 hours ago, Jef said:

Hello Gents,

Wondering if anyone has a spare lion for sale. Would like to restore this beauty

kind regards, Jef

P1040993.JPG

P1040997.JPG

Jef,

You need a Heremans's lion. Sending you a pm.

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13 hours ago, farmer said:
39 minutes ago, farmer said:

Yes.

Thank you. In Russia I think that number one, the beginning of the 20th century (after 1909).

 

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28 minutes ago, farmer said:

Hi,

You cannot date any of the L1 orders by the 'I' numeral alone on the reverse.

As to the mark, became official after 1946.

Once again, thank you very much!

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On 13-1-2016 at 23:30, farmer said:

The Knight is much earlier. Long swords appeared officially after 1905 and this crown style was only commonly used by a couple of manufacturers.

Hi Farmer,

Thanks for sharing all your knowledge with us. I didn't knew that about the longer swords, that they are used (officially) since 1905. Where did you find that information? I looked in some of the books I posses but I can't find it anywhere. Same at the internet (except in this topic).

Vincent

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Hi I just added a very interesting old model of the Order of Leopold -Officer Class in Gold

It has the crown of an early Charles J. Buls with typical Buls mark on the ribbon ring however the body including the central medallions are from J.G. Dutalis

The cross has 2 marks one is a round one not known to me the other looks like French  eagle head or Belgium horse head The weight and the size are the same as Dutalis Orders 16 Grams and 39 mm wide

Here is the new Order  together with an early Knight by Charles J. Buls to compare

 

013.JPG

015.JPG

011.JPG

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Ending with Buls in 2016 and reviving this topic with him (I hope) :)

I bought this knight in the Order of Leopold and believes it it from Ch. Buls (ca. 1845 - 1880s). Unfortunatly I can't decipher the silvermark.

I checked it with A. Ruokonen's book "Spirit of the lion" and it seems to match, at least to me, with Charles Buls.

I hope someone can verify this or disprove this.

th_551264877_IMG_2303_122_901lo.JPG

th_551267623_IMG_2304_122_134lo.JPG

th_551271231_IMG_2305_122_150lo.JPG


th_551274818_IMG_2306_122_514lo.JPG

th_551278391_IMG_2307_122_153lo.JPG

th_551281965_IMG_2309_122_534lo.JPG

     

Kind Regards,

Vincent

Edited by VC89

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Hi Vincent

It is  the late second type of C. Buls

If you look my post from 7th of August you can see the 1st type on the left from the Commander Cross  and the 2nd type on the right The Commander Crosses and the Grand Cordon Crosses by Buls always came with the 1st type crown as seen on the picture

Sometime they have marks, however many times they are not marked

 

Best

 

Graf

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VC,

Just saw your post. I think I can make out the 'sword' silver hallmark on the crown and another one punched to the wreath ties, this assures your cross was manufactured (but not necessarily awarded) prior to 1869.

Eyelet mark appears to be partial Buls's mark. Nice cross, too bad the lion is somewhat fatigued.

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