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Hi William,

I bought the Paget's Horse from Chris Berry in London in late 2008. I hate to think of what you got for it when you sold as opposed to what I paid for it.

Pity you have no headgear left as I am always interested. I don't suppose that you have photos of the other two you mention. I would love to see them either as a posting or via email.

Have you seen my thread in Collectors Corner?

BTW: welcome to the forum. I am sure that you will enjoy being a member.

Cheers,

Stuart

Edited by Stuart Bates

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Hi Stuart

Thanks for the welcome. Yes, I sold Chris the helmet when I broke up my Boer War collection. I can't remember what he gave me for it but it was a long time ago, and I don't begrudge Chris his profit, as it is his living after all! Plus C is one of the very few dealers I trust.

I have some photos of the other helmets somewhere, pre-digital and not on my PC. I will try to find them and scan them in at some point. The Sea Hrs one was plain, no flash but nicely named and dated, 4-piece white helmet w. 4-piece cover. It was only the second one I've ever seen, the first being a Grenadier Guards' CSM, I think, dated 1897, with the Omdurman flash and clearly dead right. I wonder where that is now?! It was with a dealer called Alan Beadle. The sweatband was a bit eaten away, but it was still a remarkable piece. The Rietfontein casualty helmet was the white wicker pattern and I did not have a cover for it. I eventually found a 6-piece one that just about fitted, but never found the correct Indian cover with the wide band.

I haven't seen anything in Collectors' Corner yet because I haven't yet got access to that forum.

Best wishes,

W.

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Ah. Right. I've seen it now. Very impressive. Very impressive indeed.

Am I right in thinking that the PH helmet was retailed by Hamburger Rogers? I seem to recall their label was glued inside it. I think the PH history mentions much of their kit being obtained from there.

W.

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This was the property of Private Caslin, of the 1st Volunteer Company. The company history is quite superb, and has a picture of him. Apparently he was their champion boxer. No idea where this one is now, but in some ways it was the nicest one I've owned, though the Magersfontein helmet was pretty good too. If memory is correct that one belonged to Pte. Arthur Lott.

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William,

love the helmets, especially the South Lancs. one. I have a Blue Cloth to the South Lancashire Regiment.

You talk about 4 seam helmets and covers. Now I know that covers came in 4 and 6 seams (pieces) but I was always unsure about a Foreign Service Helmet with only 4. The Home Service Helmet always had 4 but I thought the FSH always had 6.

The American version had 4 and I have seen illustrations showing a British FSH with 4 but put that down to the artist's interpretation.

You seem to know about this so any additional information?

Stuart

Edited by Stuart Bates

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I never begrudge, well rarely, dealers making a profit. If they don't then they won't be there next time we want them.

I check Alan Beadle's site often and he has a "Zulu War" OR's helmet and it has been there a long time. Why they automatically state that a helmet is Zulu war or Boer war is annoying. Especially Zulu, as it would have to have rather good provenance to make that claim stick.

Having said that a dealer/friend over in Perth, Western Australia, knows Alan and says that he is one of the trustworthy ones.

And yes, Paget's Horse is by Hamburger Rogers & Sons. The only one I have from that manufacturer I think. Can you recommend a good book on Paget's Horse?

Stuart

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William,

further to the 4 vs. 6 seams on the FSH, the Dress Regulations 1883, 1891, 1894 and 1900 all specify 6 seams. Of course, these regulations are for officers but I doubt that ORs would be different in this respect.

Stuart

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I know that in Canada some regiments opted to buy a 4-seam helmet from the US as delivery was faster and the price cheaper than ordering from England.

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I know that in Canada some regiments opted to buy a 4-seam helmet from the US as delivery was faster and the price cheaper than ordering from England.

That is very interesting Clive. The only thing I would ask is whether these were the same ones used by the American military? The Canadian helmets don't exactly look a whole lot like the American Model 1887 or 1889 helmets to me.

I imagine it would haven't been that hard however to make a slightly different "cut" so to speak to make the helmets look more "British."

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That is very interesting Clive. The only thing I would ask is whether these were the same ones used by the American military? The Canadian helmets don't exactly look a whole lot like the American Model 1887 or 1889 helmets to me.

I imagine it would haven't been that hard however to make a slightly different "cut" so to speak to make the helmets look more "British."

This was only done by a few regiments and the overwhelming majority arranged for purchase from England (in the case of officers) or waited for Militia HQ to complete authorized issues of helmets on the British pattern. The 32nd Bn band is one example that I know of from photographic evidence.

32battnband.jpg

Edited by servicepub

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Clive,

when attempt that link for the jpeg I get Wikipedia on Hypertext http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext_Transfer_Protocol.

when I go to your home page and then append images/32 etc I get Error 404 page not found.

Is the link correct and/or how does one get to images from the home page?

Stuart

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William,

in post #27 you mention "the Omdurman flash". What do you mean by this? There wasn't a single flash for the army as a whole. Rather, I think, Colonels and regimental tradition determined what each regiment chose.

They were certainly used in India well before this.

I suspect that the flashes for the Sudan Campaign were taken into the Boer War. Ron Kidd wrote an illustrated article on flashes of the 2nd Boer War for the Formation Sign magazine of the Military Heraldry Society.

Stuart

Edited by Stuart Bates

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Hi Stuart

I doubt I know any more than you do about helmet construction, and I was quite surprised when I got the cover off the Sea Hrs to find a 4-piece body underneath, an X rather than a + as you look down on it, unlike the cover. I'd expected 6 seams. There was also a thick white puggaree. The trouble is that these helmets are so rare you don't see enough to form an opinion of how they are usually constructed.

As regards Paget's Horse, there are two books on their first contingent, which I imagine is the one relevant to your helmet: "With Paget's Horse to the Front" by Cosmo Rose-Innes, which is a bit disconnected but the only proper history of PH, and "The Cossack Post", no author, a sort of humorous journal of "B" Squadron, the 52nd company, which contains some good info but is annoyingly vague and only essential for the serious student of PH. I'm lucky in that my copy has all their names handwritten inside the front cover.

Re the Omdurman flash, yes I do mean the flashes for the Sudan campaign. I don't have the details of these handy, but the G Guards one was something like a red circle with a short blue tag hanging from the centre. The flash wasn't taken into the Boer War. It was specific to the 1st Bn, which didn't serve in SA.

Finally, as you possibly know, Alan Beadle has had some outstanding kit, but I've also seen him with quite a few old dogs (I am talking about military collectables here), so as with many dealers it's caveat emptor. In my experience, if they think you know your stuff then they will respect you and treat you accordingly, but if they think they can milk you then they will do so mercilessly. Just my view.

Best wishes,

W.

Edited by William1

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I know that I have read somewhere that the GGs had a red and blue cockade on their helmets but damned if I can remember where.

There is an illustration in the Osprey Book on the Sudan campaign which shows a private of the GGs, dated 1898, with a black cloth grenade flash to the right hand side of his helmet. Now that cannot be correct unless there was a white plume on the left hand side!

Certainly the 2nd and 3rd Battalions serving in the Boer war wore a white plume to the left side. The Coldstream Guards wore a red plume to the right hand side.

I think these plumes were rather quickly removed.

Stuart

Edited by Stuart Bates

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William,

with regard to the interior of the Seaforth's helmet (post #30) do you remember what the corrugated ventilation was made of? I notice that it is only present to the front and rear of the helmet and, whilst I have seen this arrangement in a Home Service Helmet (photo), I haven't seen it in a Colonial pattern before.

Stuart

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