Bundesrepublik The new "Iron Cross"

[webr55]

This is the first (Federal) German decoration for bravery since 1945: The new "Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr f?r Tapferkeit", introduced on 10th October 2008 (not yet awarded). I just got the ribbon bar for it:

[webr55]

Here's what the award looks like. Basically just the old Honor Cross with an oakleaves device.

[TacHel]

They recently changed that. They now paint the outer part in red... (Not impressed!)

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-3030-1242661965.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-3030-1242661975.jpg

The history of the Iron Cross predates the horrors of WW2 and IMHO it should be reinstated. Really sad that some people cannot differentiate between valour in the field and politics...The French Legion of Honour and British VC were also bestowed during "somewhat questionable periods", yet these countries recognize the difference and have retained these awards.

Edited May 18, 2009 by TacHel

[Kev in Deva]

They recently changed that. They now paint the outer part in red... (Not impressed!)

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-3030-1242661965.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2009/post-3030-1242661975.jpg

The history of the Iron Cross predates the horrors of WW2 and IMHO it should be reinstated. Really sad that some people cannot differentiate between valour in the field and politics...The French Legion of Honour and British VC were also bestowed during "somewhat questionable periods", yet these countries recognize the difference and have retained these awards.

Hallo TacHel.

I.M.H.O. there is no comparison between the French Legion of Honour & British V.C.

and the Prussian / German Iron Cross period.

The early awards of the Prussian Iron Cross were only awarded for wars against France.

Many of the Royal Houses from the associated German states carried their own high awards for bravery,

many more aesthetic and beautiful designed than the Iron Cross, and some of these designs would be nice

to see resurrected.

The 1939 Iron Cross version was morphed into an abomination by hitler and his cronies, and tarnished forever.

And it will never be reinstated, politics will see to that, along with the fact that this new award is now officially to replace it.

Whereas the British Victoria Cross was awarded for Bravery, irrespective of Rank and in many Campaigns.

The French Legion of Honour is in quite a similar position.

And the French & British "somewhat questionable periods" (depending on your politics and views)

will never rate as high as those German 1936 - 1945 period in the minds of the people in todays modern world,

at least not while there are Allied veterans and civil survivors of the W.W.2. period.

Kevin in Deva.

Post Edit:- As I omitted to quote the post, to which I was responding too.

[Guest Rick Research]

It's simply a tawdry, cheap, embarassingly bad LOOKING "decoration." I've seen better quality coming out of Cuba lately. My sainted ma got better from her pistol club championships back in the 1970s.

Who approves one of these, sample in hand, and nods sagely thinking "this is GOOD?" YECH!!!!!!! :speechless1:

[TacHel]

A valid point. Still, it's a shame that a nation's symbol for valour was so atrociously perverted by a dictator over a mere 6 years when you consider it's history dating back to 1813.

When one thinks of military valour, the VC, LoH, MoH and Iron Cross immediately pop into mind. But you're correct, history and politics will most probably never allow it to be reinstated.

And I do agree that some other awards would be great if reinstated. But how would one choose from the dozens and dozens? Bavarian Order of Military Merit? W?rtemberg's Wilhelm's Cross? Saxon Albrecht Cross? I wouldn't want to be the one having to pick through the multitude of great choices available.

Would a reinstated and modernized "Pour le M?rite" be well received as the bundeswehr's top award for valour? I think it would be awesome!

Or how about a modernized Prussian "Milit?r Verdienstkreuz"?

By "modernized" I mean replacing the Prussian eagles by the modern Bundes Adler. And possibly changing the ribbon.

The red painted honour crosses just don't cut it... Not even close. I can only imagine how a deserving member of the Bundeswehr feels when presented with this "after thought" of a pseudo decoration...

Edited May 18, 2009 by TacHel

[Guest Darrell]

It's simply a tawdry, cheap, embarassingly bad LOOKING "decoration." I've seen better quality coming out of Cuba lately. My sainted ma got better from her pistol club championships back in the 1970s.

Who approves one of these, sample in hand, and nods sagely thinking "this is GOOD?" YECH!!!!!!!

I have to agree with Rick here. My god, looks like they gave the medals to the schools so the kids could paint on the red borders :speechless1:

[Naxos]

... so the kids could paint on the red borders

I think it's nail polish

[Gordon Williamson]

The history of the Iron Cross predates the horrors of WW2 and IMHO it should be reinstated.

Quite apart from matters of political correctness, the Iron Cross can only be awarded when the nation is in a declared state of war. It is what is known as a temporary award, and has to be re-instituted each time the nation is at war.

As, thankfully, Germany is unlikely ever to declare war on anyone again, the Iron Cross will most likely never re-appear and that is how it should be. Any attempt to reintroduce it now would be a travesty which would go against nearly two hundred years of tradition.

Not that the (absolutely correct) policy of not re-introducing the Iron Cross can justify awarding such a tawdry piece of junk as this new award. The basic design isn't too bad but the quality of manufacture and the dreadful read paint -yeuch :banger:

[TacHel]

Quite apart from matters of political correctness, the Iron Cross can only be awarded when the nation is in a declared state of war. It is what is known as a temporary award, and has to be re-instituted each time the nation is at war.

As, thankfully, Germany is unlikely ever to declare war on anyone again, the Iron Cross will most likely never re-appear and that is how it should be. Any attempt to reintroduce it now would be a travesty which would go against nearly two hundred years of tradition.

Not that the (absolutely correct) policy of not re-introducing the Iron Cross can justify awarding such a tawdry piece of junk as this new award. The basic design isn't too bad but the quality of manufacture and the dreadful read paint -yeuch

Thank you for that bucket of cold water... (No joke) That was really required to prevent a tangent into never land. A very good point that was omitted from the start.

You do however agree that the award is, shall we say... Extremely poor.

I'm just trying to imagine a member of the Bundeswehr being presented with this "thing" upon his return from Afghanistan following an act of courage in combat. It doesn't even compare to cheap costume jewelery!

[speedytop]

Hi,

The bravery cross with the strange oak leaves is in my opinion unimaginative/uninspired, and I hold both other crosses for quite tasteless in the design.

In German: "Das Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr f?r Tapferkeit mit dem seltsamen Eichenlaub ist meiner Meinung nach einfallslos, die beiden Ehrenkreuze f?r hervorragende Einzeltaten halte ich f?r ziemlich geschmacklos im Design.

Here are two other crosses:

Uwe

Edited May 18, 2009 by speedytop

[webr55]

Quite apart from matters of political correctness, the Iron Cross can only be awarded when the nation is in a declared state of war. It is what is known as a temporary award, and has to be re-instituted each time the nation is at war.

Historically, this is of course correct. But who says this cannot be changed? Why not re-institute the Iron Cross with a different policy? So do other countries who are not much likely to get into a state of declared war either.

Btw, I believe this Honor Cross award is only a temporary makeshift one. I think there will be something else, in time.

Edited May 18, 2009 by webr55

[Kev in Deva]

Historically, this is of course correct. But who says this cannot be changed? Why not re-institute the Iron Cross with a different policy? So do other countries who are not much likely to get into a state of declared war either.

Btw, I believe this Honor Cross award is only a temporary makeshift one. I think there will be something else, in time.

It will never happen, as the reputation of the Iron Cross is shot after WW2.

Anyway nobody ask soldiers what they think of the quality of the awards, the parade, they salute, they accept,

Kevin in Deva.

[TacHel]

At the very minimum... They could've at least changed the bloody ribbon!

[webr55]

It will never happen, as the reputation of the Iron Cross is shot after WW2.

Good to hear that there's someone who knows what will never happen.

The Iron Cross IS and CONTINUES to be the symbol of the Bundeswehr. No one has ever questioned this. It is on every Bundeswehr car and aircraft.

Edited May 18, 2009 by webr55

[TacHel]

I think a modernized "Pour le M?rite" would be great! (Apologies, I'm no graphic expert... )

They could even have it in different grades (chest and neck). Maybe one day?

Edited May 18, 2009 by TacHel

[Kev in Deva]

Good to hear that there's someone who knows what will never happen.

The Iron Cross IS and CONTINUES to be the symbol of the Bundeswehr. No one has ever questioned this. It is on every Bundeswehr car and aircraft.

The shape of the cross on todays German aircraft,

bears little resemblance to the shape of the original Iron Cross,

apart from its black and a cross

[webr55]

The Iron Cross - in a modernized version (see below) - is the official symbol of the Bundeswehr. This is official policy, if you take a look at the pages of the Ministry of Defence, for example.

TacHel, I really like that idea!

Btw, there has been some confusion in this thread over the different grades of the "Ehrenzeichen der Bundeswehr". The ones with the red borders are NOT the new Honor Cross for Bravery, they existed already before 2008, as awards for single outstanding deeds, not necessarily involving bravery in combat, but also life-saving. But since October 2008, there are five grades of the Ehrenzeichen (seven if you count the ones with red borders):

1. Ehrenmedaille der Bundeswehr

2. Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in bronze

3. a) Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in silver

3. b) Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in silver with red border (for single outstanding deeds, no minimum service time needed)

4. a) Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in gold

4. b) Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in gold with red borders (for single outstanding deeds, no minimum service time needed)

5. Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr f?r Tapferkeit (Honor Cross of the Federal Armed Forces for Bravery) : This is the NEW one, with the golden oakleaves, but NO red borders (first picture in this thread).

Edited May 19, 2009 by webr55

[speedytop]

Hi,

TacHel:

"They could even have it in different grades (chest and neck). Maybe one day?"

Hopefully never again!

TacHel:

"They could've at least changed the bloody ribbon!"

To black-white-red?

webr55:

"The ones with the red borders ... existed already before 2008"

All the three crosses shown in this thread are new in 2008.

http://www.bmvg.de/fileserving/PortalFiles...sitory=youatweb

Uwe

[Kev in Deva]

The Iron Cross - in a modernized version (see below) - is the official symbol of the Bundeswehr. This is official policy, if you take a look at the pages of the Ministry of Defence, for example.

IMHO as it was never issued in that shape / style, post 45

then it doesn't mean much trying to proclaim,

its connected to the "IRON CROSS" from days gone by.

Kevin in Deva.

[TacHel]

TacHel:

"They could've at least changed the bloody ribbon!"

To black-white-red?

No, but a ribbon different from the Honour Cross ribbon so we can tell the difference when only the ribbons are worn. Seems every single Bundeswehr ribbon always has the national colours. A little variety wouldn't hurt don't you think?

webr55:

"The ones with the red borders ... existed already before 2008"

All the three crosses shown in this thread are new in 2008.

http://www.bmvg.de/fileserving/PortalFiles...sitory=youatweb

Uwe

I didn't know that... Hmmm... Thanks for that info! :cheers:

[speedytop]

Hi,

"... so we can tell the difference when only the ribbons are worn"

Uwe

[TacHel]

Here are the 4 "original" ones... Medal though to gold.

[Obergefreiter]

It's simply a tawdry, cheap, embarassingly bad LOOKING "decoration." I've seen better quality coming out of Cuba lately. My sainted ma got better from her pistol club championships back in the 1970s.

Who approves one of these, sample in hand, and nods sagely thinking "this is GOOD?" YECH!!!!!!!

What he said. I got a merit award from the South Dakota National Guard that looked better. But on the other hand, even a tawdry, cheap, embarassingly bad looking decoration acknowledging valor is better than nothing.

[Guest Rick Research]

Uhhhh, maybe because I'm old and cranky and have abandoned expectation that The Powers That Be are even sane let alone "efficient" or "caring," I really do think that nothing is better than something which merely adds insult to injury. These are worse than those joking "...and all I got was this stinkin' T-shirt" T-shirts.

Anyone with any self-respect-- let alone respect for the service personnel who HARD earn these-- should be EMBARASSED at how crappy they are.

What POLITICIAN, on being handed one of these and told it was All His, would swell with pride and wear it like the French Legion of Honor?

Ugly, cheap, and horrible design/materials/craftsmanship simply indicate a contempt for the whole idea of "reward."

Wow! One sock (with ready made holes) and a can of lima beans for Christmas! Gee-- thanks!

Odd how the folks with gigantic personal expense accounts and 100%+ pensions are so dutifully miserly when it comes to "recognizing" heroes.

Throw the bums out. Eject them from office. Change the world! Change the gawdawful designs! :cat: