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slava1stclass

Order of Glory 3rd Class to a U.S. Naval Reservist

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Leading a simple life here in the woods, in retirement from buying Soviet since 2001... no clue where or who the Well Known Auction Site is.

1) There is no serial number in the Orders Book, so what other documentation links THAT Glory (cannot read number on scan) to the U.S. Naval aviator? A typed English label taped on the ? case doesn't do it for me.

2) Glories were to be awarded to ranks no higher than Soviet Junior Lieutenants-- a rank which did not exist in the U.S. Forces. A U.S. Naval Lieutenant Junior Grade was the same as an army 2nd Lieutenant, so would have been a 2-star Soviet Lieutenant, not a 1 star "3rd"/Junior Lieutenant.

3) Why would an American have a) had and b) USED the Soviet awards recipients privileges COUPONS?

If these are explained by other items in the group, sorry. But I don't know where you are referring to, so no clue what else there might be.

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US$6,111 - crazy!

Rick makes some very interesting observations. Particularly the lack of serial number in the booklet. As always research will show whether or not the buyer paid US$6,050 too many. Do not have the time but I also wonder where exactly the serial number places this award.

And even so - I know that soviet orders awarded to foreigners are rare and desirable but this price is excessive and ridiculous to say the least. We are after all speaking about a humble OG3 after all.

The mind boggles.

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If the Orders Book photo was actually attested at the "Soviet Consular Department in the USA" (?...) that would be the first and only such I've ever seen. That would imply there should be others...

or ???

What IS the serial number? I can't read the scan.

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If the Orders Book photo was actually attested at the "Soviet Consular Department in the USA" (?...) that would be the first and only such I've ever seen. That would imply there should be others...

or ???

What IS the serial number? I can't read the scan.

Rick,

The official stamp reads "Consular Section, Embassy of the USSR in the USA." Serial number appears to be: 382934 or 387934.

Regards,

slava1stclass

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Someone went to a lot of trouble over that item. I note that the real Bernard Sussler died Bastille day 2005.

NavyFCO, what do you think of this?

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$6100?!?!?!?!

MAN! Yeah, that's through the roof! Someone really, really wanted it!

I thought I was being overly generous when I offered a veteran $1000 for his OGPW2 with the same documents!

This group is 100% legit. The number on the Glory I have is 387911 - just about 20 off of what this one was. My group has the order book, medal in the box and the coupon book. The stamp on the photo in the book is identical.

Sissler is listed in the Ukaz for being awarded a Glory 3rd.

It's an absolutely 100% righteous group!

I think the price is a bit nuts though...but at the same time, if the buyer is reading this, I'll make them a special deal...they can have mine for $6000 and my set was featured in a JOMSA article! :cheers:

Dave

Edited by NavyFCO

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That's weird. Same Soviet embassy stamp? :speechless1:

The other thing that's been bothering me is Sissler's jacket. That's a style common in the 1930s for say 14 year old boys, back when a kid went from short to long pants back then.

Nice to know such things DID exist.

Weird.

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That's weird. Same Soviet embassy stamp? :speechless1:

Rick,

Not weird at all if the Soviet Embassy in D.C. was the controlling/issuing office for all Soviet awards to American military personnel at war's end (when many had already returned to CONUS).

Regards,

slava1stclass

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2) Glories were to be awarded to ranks no higher than Soviet Junior Lieutenants-- a rank which did not exist in the U.S. Forces. A U.S. Naval Lieutenant Junior Grade was the same as an army 2nd Lieutenant, so would have been a 2-star Soviet Lieutenant, not a 1 star "3rd"/Junior Lieutenant.

I think the Soviets didnt't take the statutes that seriously when considering decorating foreigners. They also 'awarded' Guards Badges - that aren't even real awards - to foreigners. Both are just nice looking awards and two of few Soviet awards without a hammer and sickle on them.

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"if the Soviet Embassy in D.C. was the controlling/issuing office for all Soviet awards to American military personnel at war's end (when many had already returned to CONUS)."

In which case there should be many more of these groups-- unless the recipients threw them away during the McCarthy era.

And numbers of Amerians going in and out of the Soviet embassy in 1945 or getting mail sent to them from the Soviet Embassy all over the vast fruited plains...

would have drawn the sharp gaze of J. Edgar in his own glory days.

There should be FBI files on anyone who was in or out of there, or received mail from the Embassy. :speechless1::speechless1::speechless1:

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"if the Soviet Embassy in D.C. was the controlling/issuing office for all Soviet awards to American military personnel at war's end (when many had already returned to CONUS)."

In which case there should be many more of these groups-- unless the recipients threw them away during the McCarthy era.

Rick,

It all depends. If the majority of U.S. military personnel who were awarded Soviet decorations received them in the field i.e., while still serving in Germany in proximity to Soviet forces, that wouldn't be the case.

It is not uncommon for foreign decorations to U.S. military personnel to follow the recipients to the states if presentation overseas was not accomplished.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited by slava1stclass

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Gents,

Here is another example.

Regards,

slava1stclass

And that's the one in my collection. :rolleyes: I have more scans/photos of others if needed, but I think this one would do for comparison purposes?

As far as Rick's questions, I actually addressed all of those in my JOMSA article. Here's a summary from the article:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

While the Soviets were awarding decorations to US Army personnel after V-E Day in Europe, they likewise shared their attention on the sailors of the US Navy later that same year. These awardings were much less formal, and for the most part, much less random.

The declaration (called an ?Ukaz?) of the Supreme Soviet dated 7 July 1945 announced the awarding of decorations to US Navy and Coast Guard personnel. The Embassy of the USSR published an Information Bulletin announcing the awards which read:

?For outstanding military activities which facilitated the sailing of transports with war supplies to ports of the Soviet Union during the war against the common enemy of the USSR and the USA - Hitlerite Germany - and for the valor and gallantry they displayed, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR has awarded decorations to the following servicemen of the Navy, Naval Reserve, Coast Guard and Coast Guard Reserve of the United States of America:?

What followed in this declaration was a list of 189 recipients of the following awards: Order of the Patriotic War, 1st Class, 2nd Class, Order of the Red Star, Order of Glory 3rd Class, and the medals For Valor, For Military Merit, Ushakov and Nakhimov.

The awards were roughly divided along the lines of rank: Officers received the Order of the Patriotic War 1st Class, officers and Chief Petty Officers received the Order of the Patriotic War 2nd Class. Orders of the Red Star and Glory 3rd were a bit more encompassing, being awarded to all ranks. The medals For Valor, For Military Merit, Ushakov and Nakhimov were awarded only to enlisted personnel.

After conducting numerous interviews with recipients of these awards, I found it very difficult to pin down an exact pattern or rationale for the awarding of these decorations. However, some were easier to understand than others. Two officers, Lieutenant Commander (later Rear Admiral) Sheldon Kinney and Lieutenant (also later Rear Admiral) Robert Baughan received Orders of the Patriotic War, 1st and 2nd Class, respectively. Both officers served on ships on the treacherous trans-Atlantic convoy runs and were decorated during these convoys by the US Navy - Kinney the Silver Star and Baughan with the Bronze Star.

RADM Baughan served on the USS Lexington (CV-2) and later on the USS Champlin (DD-601) during the trans-Atlantic convoys. As a young Lieutenant, he was awarded the Bronze Star for the sinking of the U-130 on 12 March 1943. Because of this action, he was included in the awards presented by the Soviet government.

Other recipients, such as LCDR Milton Sherbring and LT Alex Brokas who both flew torpedo bombers (TBM-1D) with VC-42, received their Soviet awards for their part in sinking U-1229 on 20 August 1944. As in the case with Lieutenant Brokas, his Order of Glory 3rd Class was given because of a corresponding US Navy award - a Distinguished Flying Cross.

Although these brave men never approached Soviet waters, a number of the sailors and officers on the treacherous ?Murmansk Run? as well as on convoy runs into the Arabian Gulf with supplies bound for the USSR via Iran received awards for valor displayed on these runs.

LT David Pickler served as the Officer in Charge of the 12-man armed guard onboard the SS George Clymer, and received his Red Star for actions that took place while transporting a load of lumber and aircraft to Iran. LT Thomas Delate also was in charge of an armed guard detachment on a convoy into Murmansk that was attacked enroute with considerable losses. He was awarded a Commendation Ribbon for this trip by the US Navy and the Order of the Red Star by the Soviets.

On the enlisted side, Gunner?s Mate 1st Class Garnett DeBaun shot down a German aircraft while his ship was unloading cargo in Murmansk on Christmas Day 1942, which earned him the Order of the Red Star. Boatswain?s Mate 2nd Class Andrew Matheson had a slightly more unusual action. His ship was bombed by German aircraft in port Archangel, and while ashore, he assisted in aiding Soviet citizens who had been wounded during the bombing. For this, he earned the medal ?For Valor? but no corresponding American award.

The presentation of these awards seemed to differ based on the rank of the recipient. For officers, the awards were normally sent without fanfare in the mail. RADM Baughan told me about how he received his award:

?It showed up in the mail one day. There was no presentation, but included in the package was the award, a box and several documents. These documents included the announcement from the Soviet government that listed all of the recipients of these awards, the booklet with the award, and a book of coupons for a stipend in Russia. Also included with the documents was a letter from the Bureau of Naval Personnel that told me that I could not accept anything from the Soviet government that came with the award [e.g. the stipend] (Figure X).?

Figure X (Letter from Bureau of Personnel)

He also recalled that there was also a letter from the Bureau of Personnel authorizing him to do as the Soviets instructed him to include a photo and return the order book to the Soviet Embassy for official recording and stamping. From the order books that I have had the opportunity of seeing, I have found that the recipients infrequently sent their documents back for stamping. The majority simply have the ?Valid without Photo? stamp. Those that were returned bear the stamp of the Soviet embassy in the United States (Figure X).

Figure X (Haycraft?s Order Book)

Figure X (Haycraft?s Stamp closeup)

Figure X (Broka?s Order Book)

Another interesting note about the order book is that no award number is listed, but simply the Ukaz date in considerable contrast to the normal Soviet practice of listing all awards by their serial numbers in the order book. No Navy award order book that I have personally seen has had the award number listed in it (Figure X).

Figure X (Inside Haycraft?s Book)

For the enlisted side, nearly all of those I interviewed had a formal presentation for their award, even if they had already been discharged from the service. Boatswain?s Mate Matheson described his presentation ceremony as a ?big presentation? at the city hall in the small town of Halliday, North Dakota in mid-1946. Gunner?s Mate Debaun remembered his award ceremony vividly as a group presentation in 1946 in the city hall in Indianapolis, Indiana.

For both the Army and Navy recipients, there were mixed responses with regard to wearing their awards after the War. Some, like General Wright and Boatswain?s Mate Matheson, wore the Soviet ribbon on their uniforms after the War. Others did not. Although there may be some speculation that some of the recipients didn?t care to wear a decoration from the country that later became our primary enemy during the Cold War, that was normally not the case. In my interviews, I only found one officer who returned his award (an Order of the Patriotic War, 1st Class) to the USSR during the Cold War. For others, their awards were simply not worn because of the inconvenience of wearing them - either having to punch a hole in their dress uniforms, or as in the case of ribbons, finding a ready supplier of Soviet ribbon material!

Figure X (ribbon bar with Soviet ribbon)

On the topic of wearing the awards, one of the questions I asked during my interviews was the recipient?s feelings of the awards during the ?Red Scare? of the 1950s. Not a single officer or enlisted person ever made the potential political ramifications of having been awarded a decoration by an enemy superpower a consideration at to whether or not to disclose their award publicly. Nearly all of them felt that it was simply a foreign decoration that was given to them by another allied nation and maintained that opinion of it, even during the vilification of the USSR as the Cold War intensified. At no time did they ever feel at risk for their careers (and many recipients went on to distinguished careers both in the military and civilian world) because they had received an award from the USSR.

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Ah. VERY enlightening. :cheers:

Use of the mails would DEFINITELY have drawn the attention of J. Edgar.

Some time when we get together in person I can tell you stories about "events in the 1940s" that were VERY much still "active" during the 1970s--and from the other side as well.

Those folks may be UNAWARE of their... monitoring... but a FOI request might startle some of them.

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A U.S. Naval Lieutenant Junior Grade was the same as an army 2nd Lieutenant, so would have been a 2-star Soviet Lieutenant, not a 1 star "3rd"/Junior Lieutenant.

Are you quite sure? If that's the case, what US Army rank would be the equivalent of a US Navy ensign?

Chuck

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