Kriegsmarine Minensuchboot identification question

[Norm F]

Assuming that Kriegsmarine ships count as "Equipment" I'd like to post here a question regarding the identification of a ship in my photo if I may.

First the background:

I know that my father served at the beginning of the war as Funkmeister (ROA) aboard the "Von der Groeben", the tender ship for the 3. Räumbootsflottille based in Cuxhaven on the North Sea. I have several photos of his from this time which are unlabelled. I've been trying to link them to the "Von der Groeben".

Now, the "Von der Groeben" started life as a 1916 class Minensuchboot, the M107 built in 1917 at the Tecklenborg shipyards in Geestermünde. My understanding is it was later modified in Schichau for use in the Kriegsmarine as an R-boot flotilla escort ship. I don't know the exact nature or extent of these modifications.

I've been poring over photos of Minensuchboote from Gordon's excellent "Kriegsmarine Coastal Forces" (Osprey Publishing, 2009) as well as various internet sources to try to identify features on the photos.

First off I'd like to show a detail from the schematic of the M60, another Minensuchboot of this same class. (The complete plans can be seen at The Dreadnought Project)

Note the areas marked with the arrows: the "rail" (for lack of the proper term) at the stern seen in profile, and the curved "crane" (again for lack of the proper nautical term).

[Norm F]

Now, in this photo aboard the "Von der Groeben", you can see the "rail" at the stern. (Does anyone know the correct term for this part by the way?)

[Norm F]

And here you see the curved "crane" similar to that seen in the schematic of the M1916 class Minensuchboot, as the "Von der Groeben" recovers a British mine from the North Sea for study. (Again anyone know the proper term for this item?)

[Norm F]

Now we're getting close to my question.

I have this photo of my father on watch duty in Cuxhaven from this time, and although I had seen this photo for years, it never occurred to me until recently that the ship in the background could very well be the "Von der Groeben" which is what I'm trying to ascertain. (No easy task!)

The arrows mark a curved "crane" and the "rail" at the stern similar to those seen on the previous postings. Other features of this ship don't seem typical for the M1916 Minensuchboote, but as mentioned the ship was modified in Schichau for it's current purpose, and possibly these modifications were extensive. Notably, the shape of the lower stern seems fairly vertical down to the water rather than having the "cut inward" look I'd expect on a M1916, and the funnel doesn't seem as tall, both more resembling an M35 class Minensuchboot, although it doesn't look typical for these either.

So if it's not too esoteric a question even for you Navy ship enthusiasts out there, what do you think? Is this in fact the "Von der Groeben", a modified M1916 Minensuchboot, which Funkmeister Franke is guarding so carefully?

Please comment freely.

Best regards,

---Norm

[Guest Rick Research]

All I can offer is that the railing on the stern is the taffrail in English, or Heckbord/Heckreling--I am not sure which of these is the preferred term in German.

[Norm F]

All I can offer is that the railing on the stern is the taffrail in English, or Heckbord/Heckreling--I am not sure which of these is the preferred term in German.

Thanks for that!

I think I've made another breakthrough, and I'm almost certain now that my photo in post #4 is of the "Von der Groeben" -- almost sure.

I was studying further the plans of the M60 that I mentioned above, posted at http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_M60_1918/.

Included there are not only the original plans of the M1916 model Minensuchboot the M60, but also the schematic of its modified version as it was later modified to become the Fleet Tender ship "Hecht". This nicely shows an example of how the Kriegsmarine might modify the old-style minesweepers for other duties. Now, if you look at the back of the "Hecht" you see a style that much more closely resembles my photo. See how now they've added a raised cabin-like area to the rear deck, on which a winch can be seen in profile. This resembles the back of the ship in my photo. The "Hecht" doesn't have the curved crane or rear FlaK gun any more whereas the "Von der Groeben" would have retained these features of the original M107 since it was still functioning as a mine-sweeper and needed the artillery it seems.

Now if only we could find another photo of the "Von der Groeben" to clinch this I'd be very happy, but the circustantial evidence so far is pretty strong.

Regards,

---Norm

Edited August 16, 2009 by Norm F

[Gordon Williamson]

I think there is a very high probability that the photo shows Von der Groeben.

Some factors -

The distinctive taffrail on the transom is something that none of the later Minesweeper types featured- so points to a modified earlier boat. The tall relatively narrow funnel also suggests a modified earlier type of boat.

3 R-Boot Flotille had two Tenders during its life, the Von der Groeben, then the Gazelle and the boat in the photo is definitely NOT the Gazelle.

All the other craft in the Flotilla were small Motor-Minesweeper R-Boats. so the only larger boat likely to be seen around the moorings for the Flotilla was the Tender.

Add to this that the photo of your father shows him wearing the Watch Keepers badge, and that he would not likely be on watch around a boat from a Flotilla other than his own.

All this to me points to the photo being taken alongside Von der Groeben.

[Norm F]

I think there is a very high probability that the photo shows Von der Groeben.

Some factors -

The distinctive taffrail on the transom is something that none of the later Minesweeper types featured- so points to a modified earlier boat. The tall relatively narrow funnel also suggests a modified earlier type of boat.

3 R-Boot Flotille had two Tenders during its life, the Von der Groeben, then the Gazelle and the boat in the photo is definitely NOT the Gazelle.

All the other craft in the Flotilla were small Motor-Minesweeper R-Boats. so the only larger boat likely to be seen around the moorings for the Flotilla was the Tender.

Add to this that the photo of your father shows him wearing the Watch Keepers badge, and that he would not likely be on watch around a boat from a Flotilla other than his own.

All this to me points to the photo being taken alongside Von der Groeben.

Thanks very much Gordon. Your expert opinion is very much appreciated.

Every time I discover something else about my father's Navy career it's quite exciting -- unfortunately I never asked him about the details in the years when he was alive and well.

Best regards,

---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's a new development.

I was going through some papers of my father's today and found a plastic sheet protector containing two photocopies of photos that someone must have sent him at some time (not one of his originals). One was of a Räumboot (without visible designation markings due to the waves) and the other was this photo which on careful scrutiny looks to be the Von der Groeben!

It matches closely my photo of the stern shown earlier. I don't see the curved crane however -- perhaps added at a different time or maybe it's an item that is meant to be removable? The elongated cabin added at the rear, though, matches quite well with respect to the hatches and portholes, and the taffrail is a clear match.

Assuming we're correct, this is a good example as to how extensively they would modify an old-style minesweeper for a new role as a tender in the Kriegsmarine, including amongst other things a cut down funnel intermediate in height between the M1916 and the M35 models.

Ah, the thrill of discovery!

Regards,

---Norm

[Gordon Williamson]

Yep, I'd say that has to be her. This vessel certainly started out its life as an M15/M16 type, but with modified stern to give it the squared transom, and new funnel / superstructure. The general hull shape, bow rake and layout of the forward part including the gun position however, is all typical M15/16.

There were other former WW1 Minesweepers converted to Tenders but logically there is no reason your father would have a photo of one of these rather than his own Flotilla Tender.

I'ds say its a fairly safe bet that this is Von der Groeben.

[Norm F]

Thanks again Gordon!

And finally, with regards to what I've been calling a "curved crane", I believe in English this is called a tube davit, a type of simple swiveling hoist. I think the best German nautical term would be der Ladebaum although nowadays they have also adopted the English term as der Davit.

Very similar davits can still be purchased today as seen on this website: Cooney Marine . Interestingly, it seems they can be easily removed which could account for them being absent from that photo showing the view of the whole ship.

Best regards,

---Norm

[g kamin]

norman i have some archive photos of the von der groeben and it looks like it to me...