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This one just passed through along the well-worn pathway to the Magic Epson, and is shared by today's participants in The Travelling Museum.

First the general views, then closeups, then my observations before turning it over to Team GMIC because-- I'm baffled. (Still feeling my way around this "circa 1870" stuff... :whistle: )

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I've had this in my paws, but like the other Travelling Museum exhibits, it has gone home.

First closeup:

Perfectly oridnary RAO4, but the KO3 is an exceptionally nice 2 piece Spangenstück with very thin arms and a flat reverse probably used to reduce the profile it would otherwise have projected from the bulky Zähringen Lion.

That Baden award is a Knight 2nd Class, sewn on from the awkward suspension behind the oaklweaves and with no evidence of having ever been without the foliage on top.

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The RAO4 and KO3 with XXV suggest an Oberstleutnant-- classic routine trio at that level.

The steel China and Baden 1902 suggest to me somebody still serving during those years...

and there weren't many officers ACTIVE at Lieutenant Colonel level in 1902 who were 1870 veterans.

The next impression would be that he was a z.D. officer, frozen in rank but still in uniform.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhkay. Now we SEEM to be gettiong somewhere--

I can come up with two and only two 1902 OTL zD "suspects" (another was elimated having gotten an RAO3mSchl)

1) Alb. Friedrichs, on staff of XIV. Armeekorps in 1902 BUT...

2) OTL zD Schöngarth, a Landwehrbezirks commander (and still one during the war) BUT

A) Both the above had BZ3amE not BZ3bmE. Hands on inspection detected no monkey business, but since the OZL is so lightly attached to the surface of smooth ribbons, it may be possible-- so the class Zähringen here should only be taken as a starting point.

b) This old warrior served at the front and got an EK2 Spange in the Great War.

C) My earliest Prussian Rank List is 1879, and neither suspect above was in a Baden regiment at that time-- and the Campaign Medal here indicates a Baden NATIVE.

The Traveling Museum would appreciate all assistance in this case-- as would I. :beer:

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Hi Rick,

Impressive medal bar like always. For information, do you you see something on the back of the claps 1914 ? It's always interresting to see original item like that.

Christophe

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Rick makes an interesting point and I would like to expand upon it. In addition to the corps of active duty officers, there were other officers who, in effect, made up another separate corps- these were referred to as “Offiziere zur Disposition in etatsmäßigen Stellen” In the 1914 Rangliste there are 138 officers of half pay carried as Offiziere zur Disposition in etatsmäßigen Stellen .

These were broken up into:

Pferdevormusterungkommissare (73 in 1914)- Remount Commissioners- they were in charge of a district’s horse population- and every two years mustering those horses for accounting purposes. This was necessary for the authorities to know how many horses would be available in the event of mobilization. Mainly cavalry officers filled these positions, but artillery officers can be found as well.

Vorstände der Artillerie Depots (37 in 1914): Ordnance Depot Directors- in charge of the ordnance stored at a depot. Mainly artillery officers, but more than a few infantry officers held these slots. The key was good organizational and leadership skills

Kommandanten der Truppen Übungsplätze (21 in 1914)- training area commandants

The remaining few occupied other very specialized positions.

In the early 1890s, the War Ministry wanted to expand the number of staff officers assigned to the Army Corps staff, but could never get the positions added to the establishment as well as others, So, as a way around this, they created positions for officers on half pay- mainly officers with General staff experience who could remain at the HQ for much longer periods of time and provide tremendous experience and continuity. Anyone who has served on a military staff quickly understands how valuable experience and continuity can be. These greybeards worked long and hard and without any real recognition- certainly “history” has forgotten them.

Then there were the Landwehr Bezirks Kommandeure und Bezirks Offiziere.. These were officers who had been placed on “half pay” as the Brits would say and given positions, while very important to the efficient running of the Army, were not part of the authorized peace time strength of the active officer corps. In 1914 there were 796 Landwehr Bezirks Offiziere (commanders, staff and local officers). These men were in charge of maintaining the rolls of those eligible for the draft, the affairs of the Reserve and Landwehr officers as well as organizing the annual call up of recruits and in August 1914, mobilizing the reserves for war. The commanders ranged in rank from Major to Colonel with the rank of a regimental commander for the largest and most populous military districts.

The most senior of these men were normally much older than their active duty counterparts and so, as this bar shows, could and did serve in both the 1870/71 war and WWI without rising to the ranks of general officers.

As relates to this bar, one should consider expanding the parameters of the search and look not only at the Landwehr Bezirks commanders and staff officers and attached staff officers, but also to the Artillery Depots, Remount Inspectors and the like. As has been mentioned more than a few times, finding a bar’s owner requires more than simply turning the pages of an Army list looking for the right combination. You can do just that, or, based on a broader understanding of the army’s structure, make an educated guess where to start looking. Even then, there is no guarantee of success, but it sure can save a great deal of time and wear and tear on 100+ year old books.

The key to this entire hobby is as comprehensive a library as one can afford. There is absolutely no substitute for contemporary sources. It takes a whole lot of time and money to acquire the resources needed and years of practice and experience reading between the lines to pull an individual officer long dead out of obscurity and present him via the internet for others to meet.

Thankfully, there is a group of people with similar, but not identical interests which, when working in unison, can come up with the greater part of the whole story. There are those who enjoy the bars themselves and those who enjoy tracing the career of the owner (and hopefully finding his full name.) This field is simply too vast for anyone to master by themselves.

Andy

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While I can not add anything about the combination of awards or the bars owner, I find

the 1914 Wiederholungsspange very interesting. There has always been problems with

trying to determine what is real and what is fake when it comes to these little beauties.

Most have come to believe that the common style found on ebay or dealers sites are fake.

Our friend Marshall has done lots of research on these. The one pictured on this bar

appears to be the same style as the ones causing so much concern.

Edited by gregM

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I have zero knowledge of the 1870/1914 Spangen and didn't make any larger or higher resolution scans because it is so overlapped under the 1895 jubilee oakleaves.

I've been away at my annual family reunion for a couple of days since immediately after the latest Traveling Museum session (hurried up and posted the scans on my way out) and will take me a few more catching up, but I would like to thank our helpful member who has come up with a completely different potential suspect--

Major z.D. (and a.D. still in that rank) Karl WOLFF

born Karlsruhe 2 September 1853

In 1902 Major zD and Bezirksoffizier at the Hauptmedleamt of Landwehrbezirk I Trier

He had the EK2 1870 in Baden's 4th Infantry Regiment (later IR 112)

RAO4, perhaps most importantly the "anomalous" BZ3bE, XXV, 1870, 1897, and Baden 1902-- all confirmed from the Orders Almanac 1908/09 (back later with scans of documentation as it can be found). There is no mention there of a steel China--but steels were often ignored in the vanity listings and a LWB Kommandeur is precisely the sort of person who got one for organizing troop and supply shipments off to the campaign.

Our helpful member also confirms that Major Wolff was awarded a KO3 on statute ribbon in...

1915. :whistle:

He shows "Post Überwachungsstelle Trier" as his Great War position. While that doesn't seem at first glance to be "promising" as a quote unquote combat position to have earned an 1870/1914 Sapnge

bear in mind the odd "black-white" noncombatant 1914 Iron Crosses awarded to "combatant" branch officers "for war merit in the Homeland."

I suspect this is such a case.

So Major Wolff moves to the head of the suspects list. :jumping: :cheers:

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Iron Cross 1870 as alphabetical number 40660 from Glenn's listing:

I find him as a Hauptmann in Hohenzollern Fusileer Regiment 40 in 1890, but lack of a first name :banger: and absence of rank dates in 19th century Prussian Rank Lists make things difficult for multple officers with the same family names and no decorations or the saeme decorations. Prussians... :banger:

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So that added his middle name. Here's the 1908/09 Orders Almanac, from Paul's CD, showing birth data and confirmation of 3 of the "invisible" medals--

This is out of chronological sequence, but just want to show the discrepancy in data found in period sources. While the Orders Almanac had first name and complete birth data, Glenn's 1913 List Of Retired Officers had neither and shows ONLY his PRUSSIAN awards:

BUT-- what the Retirees' List shows is initial rank date as Seconelieutenant (30.07.70 age 16 years 10 months) and date he finally retired-- 18.08.03. This also informs us that he was a Deputy (Beigeordeneter) of the City of Trier in 1913. :whistle:

It is from jigsaw puzzle bits, as Andy mentioned above, atthat a career is assembled, bit by bit. There is no such thing as "one stop shopping."

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From the 1902 Prussia/Württemberg Rank List, which FINALLY reveals rank dates for ALL regular/serving officers. :jumping:

Query for Sascha-- how does an EX-Baden officer off in VIII. Armeekorps and lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng gone from Baden service end up with the 1902 Jubilee Medal? :speechless1:

Finally, the 1914-1918 Honor Rank List:

And from Eric's list of 1870 battle bar entitlements, as Beau mentioned above-- perfect match: Baden Division and ... 4th Baden Infantry Regiment. :whistle:

What's the significance of that?-- The 1904 P/W Rank List shows Wolff retiring as Major "mit der Uniform" of Baden Inf Rgt 112. :ninja:

Every clue that we have been able to track down MATCHS perfectly.

And that is the extent of what I can find with what I have, thanks to having a THIRD suspect located:

Global teamwork! :cheers:

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I've been off tracking down Wolff backwards through the annual Rank Lists and finally sorted him out-- left IR 112 1887 as a Premierlieutenant (with only EK2 "visible" at that point) to be promoted Hauptmann in FR 40, in which he got his BZ3bmE, and then went zD to LWB Trier 1891/92.

Apparently the 1870 date from the 1913 retired officer's list above was when he ENTERED the army, not initial commisioning, because after hunting high and low I finally found his commission dates as SL, PL, and Hauptmann in Glenn's 1888 Seniority List:

Being a (doh!) SENIORITY List... these have no indices. :banger:

Of course, if one does not already KNOW what the "invisible" seniority actually WAS, this involves sorting through many many pages. :banger:

Dull work, but tedious. :whistle:

Yes folks. All is NOT glamour and luxurious jet-setting life styles at the Research Cyborg Collective.™®© It all comes down to

sources, sources, sources, team-work, team-work, team-work. Oh-- AND having slaved away finding and scanning obscure original sources in situ. :beer:

Now another Mystery arises-- since he joined in 1870 and went zD 1891/92, even though war years counted double for regulars, that is STILL only 23/24 pension years tota before he went into career stasis--

so how did he qualify for the XXV? :speechless1:

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Rick,

Even though Hptm. Wolff was placed z.D. on 01.04.1892 and went off to Trier as a Landw. Bezirksoffizier, he still continued to gain service credit until he finally retired on 18.08.1903. He received his PDK between April 94 and Apr 95- as the 1895 Rangliste entry at Landw. Bez. I Trier shows him having it.

Now that we've begun pulling you back into the 19th century, where there is a great deal of enjoyment to be had, the sources will begin to make more sense and become easier to read.

Andy

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I thought long service awards ceased under zD status. :beer:

I am hoping to confine myself to photographs and the occasional Old Style (then Only Style) ribbon bars--

MEDAL bars like this are out of my range. Luckily the Epson acts as a wonderful lure for treasures to come visit and be shared! :whistle:

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If the museum ever wanted to get rid of this nice bar... :whistle:

Query for Sascha-- how does an EX-Baden officer off in VIII. Armeekorps and lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng gone from Baden service end up with the 1902 Jubilee Medal? :speechless1:

Born here, he was a Native.

Extract from who got one in 1902, regarding the military:

"3.den aktiven Offizieren, Sanitätsoffizieren, Militärbeamten und älteren Unteroffizieren (nach mindestens 8-jähriger Dienstzeit) der badischen Truppentheile des 14. Armeekorps, ferner denjenigen aktiven Offizieren anderer deutscher Truppenkontinqente, die badische Staatsangehörigkeit besitzen und seiner Zeit in einem badischen Truppentheil des 14.Armeekorps zum Offizier ernannt worden sind; ferner den Offizieren der Kaiserlichen Marine und der Kolonialtruppen, soweit solche Badener sind, sowie auch denjenigen ehemals Großherzoglich Badischen Offizieren, die sich nicht mehr in Aktivität befinden;"

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Extract from who got one in 1902, regarding the military:

"3.den aktiven Offizieren, Sanitätsoffizieren, Militärbeamten und älteren Unteroffizieren (nach mindestens 8-jähriger Dienstzeit) der badischen Truppentheile des 14. Armeekorps, ferner denjenigen aktiven Offizieren anderer deutscher Truppenkontinqente, die badische Staatsangehörigkeit besitzen und seiner Zeit in einem badischen Truppentheil des 14.Armeekorps zum Offizier ernannt worden sind; ferner den Offizieren der Kaiserlichen Marine und der Kolonialtruppen, soweit solche Badener sind, sowie auch denjenigen ehemals Großherzoglich Badischen Offizieren, die sich nicht mehr in Aktivität befinden;"

Revisiting this topic, what about Fähnriche and Fahnenjunker?

For example:

  • Eduard Bachelin, the later HOH3X and MKFVO recipient, born in Mannheim, Fähnrich in IR 113 on 18 October 1901, Leutnant on 18 August 1902.
  • Adolf Davids, later HOH3X recipient, Fahnenjunker in IR 113 on 1 September 1901, Fähnrich on 22 April 1902, Leutnant on 27 January 1903.
  • Rudolf Hoppe, Fahnenjunker in IR 113 on 26 October 1901, Fähnrich on 19 June 1902, Leutnant on 19 May 1903.

Also, did you have to be in a Baden unit on 25 April 1902, or was there a timeframe around the date of the decree? For example, Edmund Freiherr von Villiez transferred from JB 10 to IR 113 on 18 July 1902. So was he too late?

Thanks,

Dave

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Based on saschaw's quote and the fact that it was awarded to active officers and Badener who were commissioned as an officer while assigned to a unit of the XIV. AK ..., I would assume that Fähnriche etc were not/not authorized this decoration as they were not yet active officers. Make sense?????

Andy

Edited by arb

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I think Andy is right... maybe unless the Fähnriche have been it for eight years... ;)

While Nimmergut just refers - interesting, but not of much use - to to the rabbis, here's the complete list of those groups of people to get the medal, as given in Volle's book on baden awards from 1976:

"Seine Königliche Hoheit der Großherzog haben gnädigst geruht, die mit Höchstlandesherrlicher Verordnung vom Heutigen gestiftete

J u b i l ä u m s m e d a i l l e

zu verleihen:

1. den sämmtlichen etatmäßigen und den in Ruhestand befindlichen Hof- und Staatsbeamten, sowie den außerordentlichen Professoren und Privatdozenten an Hochschulen;

2. den Mitgliedern beider Kammern der Landstände;

3. den aktiven Offizieren, Sanitätsoffizieren, Militärbeamten und älteren Unteroffizieren (Anmerkung: nach mindestens 8-jähriger Dienstzeit) der badischen Truppentheile des 14. Armeekorps, ferner denjenigen aktiven Offizieren anderer deutscher Truppenkontinqente, die badische Staatsangehörigkeit besitzen und seiner Zeit in einem badischen Truppentheil des 14. Armeekorps zum Offizier ernannt worden sind; ferner den Offizieren der Kaiserlichen Marine und der Kolonialtruppen, soweit solche Badener sind, sowie auch denjenigen ehemals Großherzoglich Badischen Offizieren, die sich nicht mehr in Aktivität befinden;

4. denjenigen Badenern, welche im Auswärtigen Amt, im auswärtigen diplomatischen, konsularischen und Kolonial-Dienst, in den übrigen Reichsämtern oder im Reichsgericht angestellt sind;

5. den Oberbürgermeistern und Bürgermeistern aller Gemeinden des Landes, sowie den Stadträthen und den Mitgliedern der geschäftsleitenden Ausschüsse der Stadtverordneten der Städte der Städteordnung, auch besonders bewährten Altbürgermeistern, die während mehrerer Amtsperioden im Dienst waren, ferner den derzeitigen Mitgliedern der Kreisausschüsse und der Bezirksräthe;

6. den Vorständen und Räthen bei den Oberpostdirektionen Karlsruhe und Konstanz und den übrigen Beamten der Reichs-Post- und Telegraphenverwaltung des Landes, soweit dieselben Badener sind, in entsprechendem Umfang wie die Staatsbeamten;

7. den Mitgliedern der Kirchenregierungen der christlichen Konfessionen, den kirchlichen Beamten in entsprechendem Umfange wie den Staatsbeamten und den Inhabern von Pfarrämtern;

8. den Mitgliedern des Oberraths der Israeliten und den Inhabern von Bezirksrabbinaten;

9. den Mitgliedern der Handelskammern, der Handwerkskammern, des Ausschusses der Aerzte, der Thierärzte und der Apotheker, des Landwirthschaftsrathes, des Landesgesundheitsrathes, des Vorstandes der Landesversicherungsanstalt Baden, des Vorstandes der badischen landwirthschaftlichen Berufsgenossenschaft, des erweiterten Verwaltungsrathes der Generalbrandkasse, den Vorsitzenden und Sekretären der Verbände der ländlichen Kreditvereine und landwirthschaftlichen Konsumvereine, den nicht ständigen Mitgliedern des Landesversicherungsamtes, den Mitgliedern des Eisenbahnrathes, des Vorstandes der Anwaltskammer, den Fiskalanwälten, den Mitgliedern der Kammern für Handelssachen bei den Landgerichten, den bürgerlichen Mitgliedern der Aufsichtsräthe bei den Centralstrafanstalten, sowie den bürgerlichen Mitgliedern der Centralleitung des Landesverbandes der badischen Bezirksvereine für Jugendschutz und Gefangenenfürsorge;

10. an besonders verdiente und ältere Beamte der Städte der Städteordnung, der Kreisverbände und der standesherrlichen Verwaltungen."

(aus: Staatsanzeiger 1902 Nr. XI, Seite 203 – zitiert nach Volle, Henning: Badens Orden, Ehrenzeichen, Prämienmedaillen. Freiburg im Breisgau 1976. Seiten 126 f.)

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