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Guest Darrell

Afghanistan Victorian Medal Group

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I have for some years noted surviving medals to 8 H and my records show 14 Afghan no bar medals and 1 Afghan bars Charasia & Kabul (this combination is noted as scarce possibly only man entitled). Ref "Forfeited" against Pte Carter's name may indicate the medal was taken away from him for some offence against discipline ie absence,desertion etc.The Victorian army was renowned for harsh discipline.Would love to see if his record of service has survived.

Best of luck with your research.

Mike

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Not to elbow in where I know, oh so VERY well, that I am not welcomed, but . . .

. . . just to add one item to the mix (and then go quietly and obediently away again). . .

Havildar Jagat Sing, I.O.M., 5th Gurkha Regiment

Indian Order of Merit, 3rd class, 1839-1911 - Named: Sepoy Juggut Sing 5th Gookhir Regt.

Not in the April 1891 IAL, so he seems to have died by that date.

For services on 13 December 1878, when serving as a rear guard in the Mangiar Pass, Afghanistan.

This was the same action for which Sepoy (later Subadar) Kishanbir Nagarkoti received his IOM3 (later IOM1 and special bar).

The Mangiar Defile 1878

A few days after the battle at Peiwar Kotal, the Field Force explored the southern route to Kurram through the Mangier defile. The main body negotiated the defile without trouble but the rearguard and baggage were suddenly attacked by the Mangal Pathans. The situation was saved by the 'steadiness and gallantry of the 5th Gurkha Regiment' who repelled every attack made by the large number of tribesmen who had massed to attack the force. The fighting lasted 5 hours but the baggage was saved. Two officers were injured, Capt F T Goad, Assistant Superintendent of Transport and Capt C F Powell of the 5th Gurkhas. They both subsequently died of their wounds.

Order of Merit 3rd Class announced in GGO 89 of 24 Jan 1879, Afghanistan - joint citation with Bugler Soorbir Damai, Sepoy Kishnbiar Nuggurkoti (who uniquely won promotion to the 1st Class and then won a special gold bar) and Sepoy Hushtbir Khuttrie: For conspicuous gallantry in checking the advance of the enemy in action at the Mangiar Pass on the 13th December 1878.

Sir Frederick Roberts reported in his despatch of 18 December 1878: The conduct and steady behaviour of the 5th Goorkhas on the occasion merit my warmest commendations. For nearly five hours this Regiment maintained a rear-guard fight over most difficult ground with a bold and active enemy thoroughly acquainted with the locality, and so successfully was this duty performed that not a single baggage animal or load was lost. It is therefore my pleasure and my duty to bring the gallant conduct of this fine Regiment once more to the special notice of His Excellency and the Government in India.

In his Forty-One Years in India, Lord Roberts wrote: On the 24th May, 1879, I held a parade in honour of the Queens birthday, at which 6450 officers and men were present. They were thoroughly fit and workmanlike, and being anxious that the tribesmen see what grand soldiers I had at hand should an advance be necessary, I invited all the neighbouring clans to witness the display... At this parade I had the great pleasure of decorating Captain Cook with the Victoria Cross, and Subadar Ragobir Nagarkoti, Jemadar Pursoo Khatri, Native Doctor Sankar Dass, and five Riflemen of the 5th Gurkhas, with the Order of Merit, for their gallant conduct on the attack on the Spingawi Kotal, and during the passage of the Mangior defile. It was a happy circumstance that Major Galbraith, who owed his life to Captain Cooks intrepidity, and Major Fitz-Hugh, whose life was saved by Jemadar (then Havildar) Pursoo Khatri, should both have been present on the parade.

India General Service Medal, 1854-95 - JOWAKI 1879-8, NORTH WEST FRONTIER, UMBEYLA - Named: Sepoy Jaggut Sing, 5th Goorkha Regt.

Second Afghan War, 1878-80 - PEIWAR KOTAL, CHARASIA, KABUL, KANDAHAR - Named: Havr. Jagat Sing Rana 5th Goorkha Regt

Kabul to Kandahar Star - Named: Havr. Jagat Sing Rana 5th Goorkha Regt

OK, I'll shut up again now . . . .

.

Edited by Ed_Haynes

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Guest Darrell

Good stuff Ed. That is a great group. I love the "4" Bar Afghan and "3" Bar Indian Service Medal :love: Swwweeet ....

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I have for some years noted surviving medals to 8 H and my records show 14 Afghan no bar medals and 1 Afghan bars Charasia & Kabul (this combination is noted as scarce possibly only man entitled). Ref "Forfeited" against Pte Carter's name may indicate the medal was taken away from him for some offence against discipline ie absence,desertion etc.The Victorian army was renowned for harsh discipline.Would love to see if his record of service has survived.

Best of luck with your research.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that, yes it sounds like their discipline was quite harsh in them days, I myself would love to know what happened!, it makes him even more exciting really. I don't think he deserted[well, hope not!], maybe he struck a commanding Officer or something!!. I am hoping his record of service has survived, having problems finding anything on that as of yet.

Are these medals hard to come by?. I guess copies can be bought out there, but I am guessing that the originals would be quite pricey.

Kind Regards Mrs. Jeanette Newton.

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Not to elbow in where I know, oh so VERY well, that I am not welcomed, but . . .

. . . just to add one item to the mix (and then go quietly and obediently away again). . .

Havildar Jagat Sing, I.O.M., 5th Gurkha Regiment

Indian Order of Merit, 3rd class, 1839-1911 - Named: Sepoy Juggut Sing 5th Gookhir Regt.

Not in the April 1891 IAL, so he seems to have died by that date.

For services on 13 December 1878, when serving as a rear guard in the Mangiar Pass, Afghanistan.

This was the same action for which Sepoy (later Subadar) Kishanbir Nagarkoti received his IOM3 (later IOM1 and special bar).

The Mangiar Defile 1878

A few days after the battle at Peiwar Kotal, the Field Force explored the southern route to Kurram through the Mangier defile. The main body negotiated the defile without trouble but the rearguard and baggage were suddenly attacked by the Mangal Pathans. The situation was saved by the 'steadiness and gallantry of the 5th Gurkha Regiment' who repelled every attack made by the large number of tribesmen who had massed to attack the force. The fighting lasted 5 hours but the baggage was saved. Two officers were injured, Capt F T Goad, Assistant Superintendent of Transport and Capt C F Powell of the 5th Gurkhas. They both subsequently died of their wounds.

Order of Merit 3rd Class announced in GGO 89 of 24 Jan 1879, Afghanistan - joint citation with Bugler Soorbir Damai, Sepoy Kishnbiar Nuggurkoti (who uniquely won promotion to the 1st Class and then won a special gold bar) and Sepoy Hushtbir Khuttrie: ‘For conspicuous gallantry in checking the advance of the enemy in action at the Mangiar Pass on the 13th December 1878.’

Sir Frederick Roberts reported in his despatch of 18 December 1878: ‘The conduct and steady behaviour of the 5th Goorkhas on the occasion merit my warmest commendations. For nearly five hours this Regiment maintained a rear-guard fight over most difficult ground with a bold and active enemy thoroughly acquainted with the locality, and so successfully was this duty performed that not a single baggage animal or load was lost. It is therefore my pleasure and my duty to bring the gallant conduct of this fine Regiment once more to the special notice of His Excellency and the Government in India.’

In his Forty-One Years in India, Lord Roberts wrote: ‘On the 24th May, 1879, I held a parade in honour of the Queen’s birthday, at which 6450 officers and men were present. They were thoroughly fit and workmanlike, and being anxious that the tribesmen see what grand soldiers I had at hand should an advance be necessary, I invited all the neighbouring clans to witness the display... At this parade I had the great pleasure of decorating Captain Cook with the Victoria Cross, and Subadar Ragobir Nagarkoti, Jemadar Pursoo Khatri, Native Doctor Sankar Dass, and five Riflemen of the 5th Gurkhas, with the Order of Merit, for their gallant conduct on the attack on the Spingawi Kotal, and during the passage of the Mangior defile. It was a happy circumstance that Major Galbraith, who owed his life to Captain Cook’s intrepidity, and Major Fitz-Hugh, whose life was saved by Jemadar (then Havildar) Pursoo Khatri, should both have been present on the parade.’

India General Service Medal, 1854-95 - JOWAKI 1879-8, NORTH WEST FRONTIER, UMBEYLA - Named: Sepoy Jaggut Sing, 5th Goorkha Regt.

Second Afghan War, 1878-80 - PEIWAR KOTAL, CHARASIA, KABUL, KANDAHAR - Named: Havr. Jagat Sing Rana 5th Goorkha Regt

Kabul to Kandahar Star - Named: Havr. Jagat Sing Rana 5th Goorkha Regt

OK, I'll shut up again now . . . .

.

I found this very interesting, I saved the photo's of the medals to my files. Thank you.

Kind Regards Jeanette Newton.

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Guest Darrell

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that, yes it sounds like their discipline was quite harsh in them days, I myself would love to know what happened!, it makes him even more exciting really. I don't think he deserted[well, hope not!], maybe he struck a commanding Officer or something!!. I am hoping his record of service has survived, having problems finding anything on that as of yet.

Are these medals hard to come by?. I guess copies can be bought out there, but I am guessing that the originals would be quite pricey.

Kind Regards Mrs. Jeanette Newton.

Jeanette, depending on Regiment, Clasps etc. the originals now days can be very pricey. Here are a few examples from dealers sites to give you an idea of the widely fluctuating values:

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...

Wow!!!!!. I don't suppose I could claim Great Grandad's medal for free then!!! lol. If he forfeited it, I guess he won't ever get it!!!.

Great pictures of the medals, shame they don't stay with the familys that they were intended for, but then, you wouldn't be able to collect them. It is marvellous to see them, and they all have stories behind them which is what I find fascinating.

Kind Regards Jeanette Newton.

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Guest Darrell

Wow!!!!!. I don't suppose I could claim Great Grandad's medal for free then!!! lol. If he forfeited it, I guess he won't ever get it!!!.

Great pictures of the medals, shame they don't stay with the familys that they were intended for, but then, you wouldn't be able to collect them. It is marvellous to see them, and they all have stories behind them which is what I find fascinating.

Kind Regards Jeanette Newton.

Unfortunately I doubt you could even find an un-named one. You may luck out and be able to find an erased example, but so far I don;t think I've seen one of these erased.

Then there are the Afghans that come with groups like Ed's example above. you could easily double or triple the price vs. the singles (depending on Regiment and number a rarity of the other medals).

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Unfortunately I doubt you could even find an un-named one. You may luck out and be able to find an erased example, but so far I don;t think I've seen one of these erased.

Then there are the Afghans that come with groups like Ed's example above. you could easily double or triple the price vs. the singles (depending on Regiment and number a rarity of the other medals).

I guess I'll have to settle for a photo of one then, that will suffice. I didn't realise that they were quite rare.

I think this site is so interesting, my son looks on here all the time with me, it has got to be one of the best ever. Everybody is so helpful.

Kind Regards Jeanette Newton.

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Not to elbow in where I know, oh so VERY well, that I am not welcomed, but . . .

. . . just to add one item to the mix (and then go quietly and obediently away again). . .

On the contrary Ed, you're very welcome.

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Ed - at the risk of getting my head 'bitten off ' , I am going to take issue with you on this not welcome bit. When I first joined - a year ago on the 3rd. I was impressed with your posts and your knowledge. You and I have had limited exchanges, but I would welcome the opportunity for us to exchange banter and info.. Please re-think your position on all of this - from my contacts I know that it is all a mis-understanding. After all, you, Rick - and for some reason, myself, have been elevated to the 'purple' - so , at least we should be corresponding.

Best wishes Mervyn (Sorry, Darrell that this is 'off topic', but it seems the right time to clear the air....) ( Take 'no notice', Jeanette)

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Guest Darrell

No problem Mervyn, I'd like Ed to contribute to these threads as well.

Thick skin it takes now days ... all kinds out there that like jabbing sharp sticks at you :rolleyes:

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