Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Swaab's DSC came through in 1920. The citation reads... The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress, July 9, 1918, takes pleasure in presenting the Distinguished Service Cross to First Lieutenant (Air Service) Jacques M. Swaab, United States Army Air Service, for extraordinary heroism in action while serving with 22d Aero Squadron, 2d Pursuit Group, U.S. Army Air Service, A.E.F., near Montfaucon, France, 28 September 1918, and in the region of Champignuelle, 27 October 1918. On September 28 Lieutenant Swaab, although himself pursued by two enemy planes, perceiving one of his comrades in distress and in danger of being shot down, dived upon the enemy plane which was directly behind that of his comrade and shot the enemy plane out of control, forcing it to withdraw. His prompt act in going to the assistance of his comrade enabled the latter to escape. On October 27 Lieutenant Swaab and another member of his group engaged in combat with seven enemy planes. In this encounter, although outnumbered, Lieutenant Swaab continued in his attack and succeeded in shooting down an enemy D. F. W. observation plane. War Department, General Orders No. 53 (1920) Notice there is no reference to Swaab's exploit's on September 8, 1918!!! But the citation cherrypicks two of the list of dates offered by Brooks in his MOH application. Edited November 16, 2009 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Also in 1920 Swaab received his Victory medal, which he decorates to good effect--two battle clasps, the "Defensive Sector" service clasp, and one star for every personal confirmed victory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) In the 19020s there seemed to be innumerable veterans' organizations, including a few for flying officers on opposite sides to come together as comrades of the air--most of these, it seems, did not survive the Depression. Swaab evidently like this organization enough that he glued its membership card in among his medals... The ID is signed by Major Schauffler, Assistant Chief of Staff of the Air Service whose signature appears above. Edited November 16, 2009 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Then in 1932 comes his Purple Heart, for having his hair parted three times by bullets on September 8, 1918... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 Later in 1932 comes Swaab's Silver Star. Swaab was awarded three Citation Certificates and Stars which he didn't mount on his full-sized Victory medal so as not to mess up the symmetry! Here they are on his ribbon bars. He needs two Victory medal ribbons for all the appurtenaces!--three silver star citations on the left ribbon, and three bronze stars on the rightmost for his battle and service clasps. So, with the authorization of the Silver Star in July, 1932 he presnted copies of the orders making him eligible for the Citation Stars and gets the new medal with a bronze oak leaf cluster...? QUESTION: Would someone help me with my math? Isn't he one bronze star short? Is he worried about symmetry again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 That leaves his state medals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 ...and then the long shot (the wing is for my sense of symmetry--not Swaab's)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 After the war Swaab settled in Manhattan and job hopped, variously working as an executive for Fleer, then a cigar manufacturer, a women’s garments firm, and as a business consultant. He was technical advisor on Howard Hawks’ 1930 film, the original Dawn Patrol with Douglas Fairbanks, Jr., although a lot of sites state Swaab worked on the 1938 version. He was an early member of Cross and Cockade and the main speaker at the August 17, 1962 meeting. He died a year later of heart trouble and was buried at Arlington, his squadron mate Ray Brooks present along with other notables including General Carl Spaatz. I find it interesting that in various Who’s Whos over the years Swaab's recommendation by Brooks for the “Congressional Medal of Honor” on April 1, 1919 is listed as an accomplishment...THE END! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 What a fantastic, fantastic, fantastic group!!!!! I am not a big airforce fan, but I would buy this ;-) I assume it is worth more than my car... but what the hey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Dunno, what are you driving these days? Rgds :whistle: Edited November 16, 2009 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Tezer Posted November 29, 2009 Share Posted November 29, 2009 As for Swaab's MOH recommendation, if there was a hint of anti-Semitism in his rejection (to say nothing of blatant anti-Semitism) it would certainly not have been recorded in any official documents. That's how racism has worked in America since the Emancipation Proclamation - it often persists because it isn't mentioned overtly. Instead, people who are the wrong color or heritage are simply branded with a personal demerit of some kind: lazy, untrustworthy, dirty, stupid, etc. On the other hand, there were many recommendations for the Medal of Honor that were rejected simply because the level of personal bravery required was felt to be lacking in the recommendation. Rickenbacker wasn't upgraded to the MOH until the 1930's, and until that happened, any other living fighter pilot would almost certainly have been rejected. Once those decisions were made, they were not reversed, at least not until about the 1990's when we began retroactively awarding medals to people who may have been discriminated against in prior wars (mostly WW2 and Korea). Today the Medal of Honor is rarely awarded to living recipients, going mostly to those who have sacrificed their lives to protect their buddies, so by today's measure I don't think either Swaab or Rickenbacker would be considered for it. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted November 29, 2009 Author Share Posted November 29, 2009 Wow...excellent observation, TIm. I overlooked the whole posthumous angle. I guess Brooks realized at the time his living ace was a long shot...having survived the war he would not survive the process. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiva Posted November 30, 2009 Share Posted November 30, 2009 What a great piece of work and history lesson! Thanks, Oiva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Liontas Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Beautiful piece!! I am surprised I missed this posting. The rarest thing of this group is the squadron pin. To have a named squadron pin is almost unheard of in WWI aviation collecting. And to have one from and Ace, and such a well known squadron is amazing!! Congradulations However, I saw this on Adres' site for sale. 30,000 Euro is an insane price and well over 15,0000 Euro too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speagle Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 REF #30: The oak leaf cluster on the silver star ribbon bar is upside down. The correct positioning is shown on the medal ribbon itself. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Beautiful piece!! I am surprised I missed this posting. The rarest thing of this group is the squadron pin. To have a named squadron pin is almost unheard of in WWI aviation collecting. And to have one from and Ace, and such a well known squadron is amazing!! Congradulations However, I saw this on Adres' site for sale. 30,000 Euro is an insane price and well over 15,0000 Euro too much Ouch.... would that be a record for a US group? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Liontas Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) Ouch.... would that be a record for a US group? Hi Chris! Most are 20-25K range for really nice US groups to ACE's, squadron commanders, DSC winners. It all really depends on the group. I have not seen one sell for US $ 30K+ yet. -- I knowof a Lafyette Escadrille group that was about as complete as you can get, it sold for 26K with the uniform. (he had about 6 kills) -- and ACE fabric I missed out on (see photos) sold for $25K just this month. Named to the squadron commander 91st Aero with 5 confirmed kills. The killer part was it was from one of the two SPAD XIII's the 91st aero squadron operated (they were a Salmson unit) The problem with Swaab's group, is most of the senior US Aero Squadron collectors saw it when it was offered for $30,000--and they thought that was 8-10,000 too much. Now it is around $50,000 to even get a shot at it (with Andre's commission). Waaaay too rich. Whoever bought it, is going to lose a lot of money. Edited March 9, 2011 by Chris Liontas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottplen Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) WOW !!! Nice group ! Edited March 9, 2011 by scottplen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) The problem with Swaab's group, is most of the senior US Aero Squadron collectors saw it when it was offered for $30,000--and they thought that was 8-10,000 too much. Now it is around $50,000 to even get a shot at it (with Andre's commission). Waaaay too rich. Whoever bought it, is going to lose a lot of money. You crack me up, Chris!!! You know more than I do! I negotiated with one collector ONLY who tried to chisel on the group, and called repeatedly over several years to see if I'd fallen on hard times and dropped my price. Before the auction it was on display at an OMSA convention and last year at the MAX. 10 kills in a few weeks? Highly emotive actions? Medal of Honor recommendation from Ray Brooks? One of only three silver stars awarded to an aviator? plus DSC, plus purple heart and Air Medal? Gold / enamel squadron pin? (One of only three I know of, including Brooks' in the Smithsonian.) I have never had the opportunity to own a better US group in 30 years of collecting. Not sure what to make of your comparison of this to a piece of fabric...and six kills are fewer than 10 last time I counted. Using your math $26,000 divided by six kills is about 4,300 per kill. Swaab has ten. But I wasn't really thinking in terms of this kind of arithmetic when I bought the group. Peter Hlinka, one of those "senior collectors" and a lifetime member of OMSA and OMRS who also happened to work for Bannerman and Flayderman for decades, told me before the auction years ago to be prepared to spend 30-35,000 for this group on account of its calibre. I might have, too, if Butterfields hadn't accidentally lost a heavy-hitting phone bidder and tried unsuccessfully for almost two minutes to get him back while I sweated bullets. Lose money? How does that work? The bottom about to fall out of our hobby? Newsflash--all our stuff is only worth what someone somewhere is willing to pay for it. Rgds Edited March 22, 2011 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Tezer Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 One of only three silver stars awarded to an aviator? Don't want to nit-pick, especially as I also believe this is one of the best WW1 U.S. aviation groups in existence, but my (incomplete) research shows a lot more than three Silver Stars to aviators for WW1. I have counted 196 gallantry citations to aviators, which would break down into 186 Silver Stars and 10 Oak Leaf Clusters if not for the fact that many of those who received the citation never actually applied for or received the medal. In fact, a number of them never lived to see the establishment of the Silver Star medal in the 1930's. At least three recipients were upgraded to a DSC (Henry Robinson Clay, George Fisher and Edward Harold Greist), and to the best of my knowledge only one recipient earned three citations: Lawrence K. Callahan, 148th Pursuit Squadron. Callahan never received the DSC. I had intended to pursue my research further and establish how many actually applied for the Silver Star medal, but I never got that far. Maybe some day. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Don't want to nit-pick, especially as I also believe this is one of the best WW1 U.S. aviation groups in existence... Thanks for your correction, Tim. I wrote this rather quickly and with some annoyance. I meant to say three silver star groups to WW1 aviators that have come up for sale to collectors, referring to a database someone on another forum has been compiling. At any rate, Swaab was one of those 10 Oak Leaf Clusters. I'd be interested in knowing how many of those double SSMs were awarded the DSC? Rgds Edited March 22, 2011 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Tezer Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 At any rate, Swaab was one of those 10 Oak Leaf Clusters. I'd be interested in knowing how many of those double SSMs were awarded the DSC? Rgds That's the real question. By my count, only three WW1 aviators could have had the Silver Star Medal with OLC and the DSC: Swaab, Clayton Bissell and Kenneth Littauer. John Hambleton earned the DSC with OLC, and two Silver Star gallantry citations, but while that would have made for a great medal group, Hambleton died in 1930 in a flying accident and never lived to apply for the Silver Star medal. Not sure about Bissell, as I couldn't find a date of death and never went to the trouble of pulling award record cards for all these guys. But at most there were three who could have had the DSC/SSM+OLC. Eddie Rickenbacker never got a Silver Star, oddly enough, even with the Medal of Honor and 7 DSCs. No question that a DSC/SS combination to a WW1 aviator is generally very hard to come by. Considering that the Medal of Honor is not even available to U.S. collectors, and no WW1 aviation MoH's would be available even if they were legal to deal in, a DSC/SS combo becomes one of the great prizes out there. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I think pricing this is an impossible task... there is a difference between an objective market value and what one or two individuals are willing to pay. Simply because, the market value stays, and the price someone is willing to pay only exists as long as he is interested/alive. Example1... I have mentioned a Family related group I put an insane bid on and ended up paying 3 times the average market price just because of the name.... and by some 1 in a million chance, someone else was going for the name of the recipient as well... My under bidder is no longer interested in the group... if ever I were to sell it, the value would no longer be subjective, but regular market value... a third of what i paid. Example2... British collectors... when 2-3 guys collect Trios to the upperwancsworth Fusiliers... you can see them going for 2-3 times the price of, lets say, the lowerwanksworth fusiliers (which are selling at the average market price for a trio). Are the Upperwancsworth fusiliers worth their price? Yes indeed, that is the going market price... AS LONG as there are folks willing to pay that price. One of them dies, one finally finds a girlfriend... and collector three sees his collections value halved. In the past I have often paid waaay above premium to get REALLY sexy things... my unfortunate experiance has been, when it comes to selling, if you dont find someone with the same kink, you may not make your money back. Anyway, back on the subject above... having once struggled to sell a document group to a guy with 49 victories, 3 in 5 minutes once, I realised then how little interest there was in details... Fantastic group, that MAY find a deep pocketed American collector who wants to buy American history, no matter the cost, but that is a question of finding the right buyer... Reading the thread a few times and comparing it with RAF/RFC groups with DSO etc... I think it is proportionally way more expensive than a British group of the same "sexiness" level. Just lots of thoughts here... but lets seperate potential buying publics here... collectors with an overview of the market, and folks who dont care about market price... an Example... There is a dealer in the states (Der Rittmeister) who has a lot of intersting German Imperial stuff... but IMHO has insane prices. I dont know anyone willing to pay those prices (I once bought something on his sale though)... but someone IS paying those prices, or he would not be in business. If I were to say "that EK1 is worth USD195" and he were to say "I had it for USD375... and someone bought it".... what is the value? Just some thoughts here as it is indded a very interesting question... what is a group like this worth.... is there a difference between worth, and what an individual is prepared to pay... are US groups getting ready to skyrocket in price?... will the US group prices be more volatile than British where there is a more established collecting community? great thread that poes a lot of questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luftmensch Posted March 23, 2011 Author Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) Chris, there is no difference between market value and what someone is willing to pay. These groups have no intrinsic value to speak of. Buyers and sellers in any given moment establish the value of things. Look at financial markets and their volatility. There supply and demand adjust in nanoseconds. I firmly believe in 20 years, low-end militaria will be littering the floors. We will all be dead or downsizing, and the generations after us will continue in the thrall of their plastic devices. At the high end, collectibles in all categories continue to make new records as the wealthy few bid each other up with their growing share of the wealth. I still feel the Brits market their history better, probably because they are so dependent on tourist, ie American, dollars. Look how many London dealers have folded since 9/11 for want of American visitors. But the auction houses are thriving and there are so many more of them to promote British medals. This group might have been consigned to a UK house, if not for the fact that Andreas Thies spoke up first believing that its Jewish interest made it very desirable. As I said in my thread, they had a reputation for not fighting which, of course, is racist idiocy. Andreas knows his market, but if he has miscalculated I'll be happy to take this back. I know where Swaab's Spad fabric and flying suit are.... I disagree about Allied groups. I've never had a chance to own one comparable in emotive value to this Swaab group. The few I've been attracted to have been high five to six figures. It's also hard to compare Allied with American groups, since it must be reckoned how quickly the Americans had to develop their air arm. Swaab went from inept fledgling to double ace in some thirty days. I've had a few German aviator groups of less import than Swaab IMHO yet they have realized more than the opening bid for Swaab! Supply AND demand... Edited March 23, 2011 by Luftmensch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Chris, there is no difference between market value and what someone is willing to pay. I think there is a major difference.... Take the family group I mentioned... cost EUR450 instead of EUR150. Because there were two folks with a "must have" attitude, it was EUR450... that was an artificial value. Especially as I know the other guy no longer has in interest. I paid EUR450... but the OBJECTIVE market value of this group is now EUR150... We (Me and He) created an artificial value for a "must have"... best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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