Norm F Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Hello all, I was hoping for some opinions on this badge which I have on hold. I think it is a mint tombak unmarked minesweeper of the same type as has been posted before, by some thought to be Juncker based on the reverse setup (but not proven). This certainly matches that type, but my question is have there ever been copies of this type and does this look genuine to more experienced eyes? The only thing that stuck out in my eye was the odd bevel to the tip of the left side of the swastika which I haven't seen before. Best regards, ---Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 fuzzy shot of reverse showing pin. Any opinions? Cheers. ---Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Don't worry, it is quite normal to find little knocks and "dings" on the surface of Tombak badges. My example does not have the knock to the tip of the swastika but I am quite sure that you have a very nice original example there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted November 19, 2009 Author Share Posted November 19, 2009 Don't worry, it is quite normal to find little knocks and "dings" on the surface of Tombak badges. My example does not have the knock to the tip of the swastika but I am quite sure that you have a very nice original example there. Thanks very much Gordon. I'm quite happy to be getting this badge. I'm still looking forward to the release of your book on KM badges. I guess not in time for Christmas! Best regards, ---Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nesredep Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Hello! Norm F Congrats,very nice Minesweeper. All the best Nesredep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin W Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 Hi Norm, as i mentioned elsewhere,i see nothing wrong with this badge.A good original of the unmarked type that is attributed to Juncker.Great finish remaining too. Regards,Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted November 20, 2009 Author Share Posted November 20, 2009 Hi Norm, as i mentioned elsewhere,i see nothing wrong with this badge.A good original of the unmarked type that is attributed to Juncker.Great finish remaining too. Regards,Martin. Thanks again Martin. And thanks Nesredep. Once I get the badge in hand I'll post more photos. Although I see the resemblance to Juncker hardware I also see differences so I'm looking forward to posting some closeups of the hardware. As well, I'm intrigued by the large headed pin in the hinge characteristic of these minesweepers which is not seen on any marked Juncker badges. In fact the only other hinges I've seen with such large-headed pins are on Schwerin badges. Pictures to follow eventually to facilitate discussion. Best regards, ---Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 ...Pictures to follow eventually to facilitate discussion... Since I received my new badge, I've done some comparisons and posted some observations on another forum. I'd like to post here as well to complete this thread and garner further discussion if I may. The original question was could these badges have been produced by Juncker. My understanding is Martin has done similar comparisons in the past and considers it quite likely. First off, here is a closeup of the hardware on my unmarked minesweeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 Now, concentrating on the hinge block. Here is a collage of hingeblocks from various examples of this unknown maker's minesweepers. Mine is the large one on the left and again in the beginning of the top row. Most, but not all, have the dome-head hinge pins, similar to those used by Schwerin and Juncker in Berlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 Although Juncker used a variety of different hinges on various badges, most of which differ from these, here is one in particular on a marked Juncker Coastal Artillery badge (interestingly another KM badge) that bears a striking resemblance to our minesweeper hinges, including the dome-head hinge pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 Now we turn to the round wire catches. Here is a composite of several examples of these catches from our unknown minesweeper maker. Mine is the first in the top row. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 Now, here is a composite of round wire catches from a variety of different maker-marked Juncker badges for comparison. All are on tombak badges. The similarity to the catches on our unknown maker's tombak minesweepers is apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 So as you can see from the previous posts, the similarity of our unknown maker's hardware to Juncker hardware forms the basis of naming these badges "Juncker-style minesweepers". The dome-head hinge pins certainly suggest a Berlin connection, having been used extensively in early Schwerin tombak badges. I'd be interested in other opinions and any ensuing discussion. Best regards, ---Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardT Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Nice badge Norm. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Williamson Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Even though many of us had already considered this type to be a Juncker product for some time, this has been a very useful study by Norm. Its always nice to freshly review the circumstantial evidence which led us to attribute this type to Juncker, (and most of the evidence we have for attributing non-maker marked badges IS circumstantial) and to see it so well presented and laid out certainly reinforces my view at least, that these were indeed most likely by Juncker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin W Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 Even though many of us had already considered this type to be a Juncker product for some time, this has been a very useful study by Norm. I do agree with you Gordon.I have always considered this type of Minesweeper badge a Juncker product. Having said that,i would like to say a big thank you to Norm for the work and effort he has put in in providing the visual evidence above. A great reference for the future,i think. Thanks again Norm, Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 I think the next few slides may be the "pièces de résistance". In preparation, note the features of the eagles on these tombak Juncker-style minesweepers: 1) "double-breasted" eagles 2) slight splaying of the legs 3) occasionally seen with a variable amount of bevelling on the left tip of the swastika (mine is the first in the upper row) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Now note typical features of the reverse contour of these badges. 1) deep shoulder cutouts as shown by the green arrows 2) the typical deep edge cutouts making almost 90 degree angles. 3) the short, acute-angled lower portion of the water spout. Although other maker's MS badges may show one of these features, I've found that the constellation of all of these features is typical only for this maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 Now another Juncker connection! Here you see a comparison photo between my tombak in the top row and a photo of a zinc badge below that exhibits all the typical features identifying it as the same maker as our tombak versions: double-breasted eagle, slightly splayed eagle legs, the bevel on the left tip of the swastika, and the typical margins on the reverse. And now the hardware on the reverse of the zinc badge is typical for other Juncker-made badges, including a hinge similar to that seen on the Juncker-style U-boots and interestingly a flat-wire catch, seen not only on other Junker badges, but also on the variant minesweeper posted in this thread. So there you have it -- both the early tombak and later zinc versions of this variety of minesweeper exhibit hardware typical for a range of Juncker-made badges. Best regards, ---Norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm F Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 (edited) For good measure, notice here the remarkable similarity between the hardware of the unmarked zinc Juncker-style Minesweeper and a maker-marked zinc Juncker Coastal Artillery badge. I think that almost clinches it. Best regards, ---Norm Edited December 22, 2009 by Norm F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin W Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Excellent work Norm. I have never noticed a zinc Minesweeper that i could attribute to Juncker,before.Your posting here seems to confirm that they may well have produced the badge in zinc. Well done. Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Not much to add from what I have already stated, great original research on your part. Quite refreshing. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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