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Christian Krug Surgeon. Well, nothing about him directly I know, but thee is a GREAT letter by one of his comrades in the new Glover book (The Waterloo Archive: German Sources") which describes well the hellacious conditions the Brunswick medical corps (all 20-25 of them) experienced in June, 1815.

Very many thanks, I look forward to reading his book. Owen

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In time for Christmas I got probably the last Brunswick Waterloo Medal for this year, from a fellow collector.

It comes with a different suspension as you can see.

CHRST. KUHLMANN

HUS. RGT.

Casualties at Waterloo after Siborne:

- 1 Officer and 27 NCO/Men killed

- 5 Officer and 45 NCO/Men wounded.

Merry Christmas to all

greetings

eitze

see post #145

post-171-048366800 1288270791_thumb.jpg

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Wanted to share one of my latest purchases, a Prussian Kriegsdenkmunze 1814 for combatants. It appears to have the original ribbon, but to a newbie collector (me!) , it seems an odd way to fix the medal ribbon? I am sure you will know better...

This was an E Bay purchase and, in correspondence after the sale had been completed, the seller told me that the medal had been passed down his German wife's side of the family. There may be scope for research here.

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1814Side.jpg

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Hello Monkey,

That is a nice '1814'. Fortunately, they are still affordable for the average collector (and probably not faked often as a result). If you are like me, you will want all 4 of the series. The Napoleonic medals (actually post-Napoleonic medals) are fun to collect because of the men & times they represent. They are seldom flashy but mean more to me than some later-era medal for fighting in some back-water, 3rd world colony!

All the best!

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Hello Monkey,

That is a nice '1814'. Fortunately, they are still affordable for the average collector (and probably not faked often as a result). If you are like me, you will want all 4 of the series. The Napoleonic medals (actually post-Napoleonic medals) are fun to collect because of the men & times they represent. They are seldom flashy but mean more to me than some later-era medal for fighting in some back-water, 3rd world colony!

All the best!

Hi Jaybo,

Thanks for your reply - as a beginner, it's great to get some feedback. I agree that it is nice to find some medals that are affordable and I will be looking to add the 3 other medals in this series. Given the extraordinary investor prices for some pieces, I really think medals like this are excellent value - especially with the history they represent. They may not have a high intrinsic value, but as an ' old soldier' I fully appreciate what they represent.

Regards,

Owen

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I know that a few of you have already posted pictures of the Hessen-Kassel (or Hesse-Kassel) 1814-1815 KDM, so I hope you don't mind me joining in....I have just acquired one for my collection and wanted to share it. I believe that it is on an original ribbon.

I think it is a super medal and like my previous purchase (above) even better because it hasn't broken the bank to acquire! I also wanted to add that I get a great deal of enjoyment form this forum and the immense knowledge you all seem to have. As a true beginner, I am really scratching the surface, but learning as I go...

I am also curious...I have seen this medal referred to as both a campaign medal and as a commemorative medal...can anyone tell me which it is? If it is the delay in issuing (i.e. 1821) that makes it a commemorative medal, then shouldn't this apply to many other medals that were issued quite some years after a campaign or action/battle?:unsure:

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Hello Monkey,

Congratulations on your 1814 Prussian combatants war medal; it is a very fine example with very good relief and no corrosion.

Your Hessen-Kassel medal looks very good as well, and yes the ribbon is correct and from the picture looks to me to be original.

Jaybo’s comments are right on the mark and were very meaningful to me because this is exactly how and why I started my

Imperial German orders and medal collecting. I won’t bore (or scare) you with the details as to what this has led to some

thirty-five years later; but beware, it truly is a slippery and endless slope. Once you get the other three type two medals,

you can go after the type ones; then of course, there are the four non combatants, and then...

I agree especially with the sentiment that these medals are under appreciated; and as a result, undervalued. As you already know,

aside from Prussia, the medals of this era from several of the other German states are many still available at very attractive prices.

Have fun, enjoy the hunt and best wishes,

Wild Card :cheers:

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I recently bought as well a Brunswick Watrerloo medal, suspension is missing. Unfortunately, it never reached me. It was lost on the post way, or even never sent. Seller does not answer my e-mails anymore.

If anyone sees a this medal, to "CHRST . SCHMIDT . 1. LIN BAT.", please inform me. It actually is mine. I do not hardly need it (so you might keep it!), but I do need information where it was bought. If the seller sold it twice... I'm getting angry about it.

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Hello monkey,

these are two fine medals you`ve acquired :beer:

The correct German naming for the Hessen-Kassel medal is "Kriegsdenkmünze". So campaign medal would be the name.

This medal was awarded in Bronze with rim engraving for combattants and in black iron without engraving for non-combattants.

The latter is much rarer!

The year 1821 isn`t that late for a medal for the Napoleonic wars.

My two Waldeck campaign medals shown in posting 88 and 89 were issued on 14.01.1850 !!!

Not many veterans were still living at that date. Only 369 pieces were awarded.

greetings

eitze

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If I am already in the Napoleonic section, I can show you my latest acquisitions :whistle:

Hannover:

Campaign Medal for 1813

It came with an old ribbon.

The medal was issued on 11.05.1841 by King Ernst August.

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And second an addition for my Waterloo collection.

Brunswick Waterloo Medal

Chrn. Seger

Avant Garde

Casualties at Waterloo after Siborne:

7 NCO and Men killed

1 Officer and 20 Men wounded

greetings

eitze

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Hello Eitze & Wild Card,

Many thanks for your replies and for sharing your very fine 1813 Hanover and Brunswick medals - seeing the medals held by other collectors is the real joy of this hobby (well having them in my hand is better of course!). I have long had an interest in the Napoleonic wars, but mostly from the (ahem) British soldiers perspective and had not really thought to collect the medals (although I have long wanted the British Waterloo medal). Anyway, having recently bought a British Waterloo medal and - more importantly - handled it, the tangible link between the battle and the 'here and now' was established and having the medal just seemed such a logical extension of my interest.

As my medal research increased it piqued my interest in the allied medals ...and of course the French...related to Waterloo ...I naively thought collecting all the other associated Waterloo medals would be a relatively simple task..I hadn't counted on getting the medal bug quite badly and consequently extending my interest to the medals from the wider Napoleonic era ...nor had I appreciated the number of German/Prussian medals that were issued by the different States....all of a sudden my previously tight collecting boundaries had been blown apart (pardon the military pun). Where does it all end! I really need to re-establish some boundaries!

I am based in Kosovo at the moment, so physical collecting is difficult and I have to live my interest vicariously through you! Periods of leave back in UK are when I can add medals and time in Kosovo is about researching. Thank heavens for the interweb!

Once again, thanks for your advice and thoughts on the subject.

Owen

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Gentlemen,

Congratulations and thanks for all of the wonderful pieces and related information that you have posted. I must say that this thread

has exceeded the expectations that I had when I started it. One question that I have before I go any further -

eitze, is there any Braunschweig regiment for which you do not have a Waterloo medal? Congratulations on a great collection.

Going back through the thread, among a few decorations that have still not been posted is the Hannoverian Guelphic medal, so...

It should be noted at the outset that the Guelphic medal was possibly the second German medal to be awarded to nco’s and other ranks

for acts of bravery.

The first thing that you will probably notice is the very proper British suspension. This is how these medals were awarded. Then shortly

after Ernst August became King of Hannover in 1837, he instituted a number of changes to the statutes of the Guelphic Order; one of

which was that henceforth the medal would have a regular ring type ribbon suspension. Apparently, not all medals were converted,

so we see legitimate medals with both types.

The second thing that you will notice is that the Guelphic medal might look very familiar. That is because, yes, it has the same obverse

as the Hannoverian Waterloo medal.

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Now to confuse matters further it has the same reverse (and obverse) as the 1815-1831 Hannoverian silver merit medal.

Again yes, the Guelphic medals and the 1815-1831 Hannoverian silver merit medals are identical. So how does one know

which is which? Fortunately, in good Hannoverian tradition, the recipient’s name, title/rank, military unit (whatever might

apply) is impressed on the rim of the medal; and fortunately the rolls to both the Guelphic medal and merit medals are

available. The example shown here is impressed to * Diretrich Meyer Sergeant im 2t. Bat. K.D.L.*

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Kingdom of Westphalen

Silberne Ehrenmedaille, 2nd. model

The King was Jerome (= Hieronymus in German) Napoleon, the youngest brother of Napoleon. He was known in Germany as "K?nig Lustik" - King funny or merry. It was said, that "lustik" (the right spelling is "lustig") was the only German word he was able to speak, but that is a myth.

greetings

eitze

Hello Eitze,

I think that this is a beautiful and really very interesting medal and definitely on my shopping list - to which end, I have been doing a bit of online reading. The reading has left me with a couple of questions:

Firstly, I read one account that the medal is silvered bronze and another that it is solid silver - do you know which is true (or perhaps both are true..)?

Secondly, I read a note that because the medal was issued in quite limited numbers...later copies were produced in Paris for study and collecting purposes. Do you know anything about this and are there details that distinguish the original from the later copy?

Many thanks,

Owen

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Now to confuse matters further it has the same reverse (and obverse) as the 1815-1831 Hannoverian silver merit medal.

Again yes, the Guelphic medals and the 1815-1831 Hannoverian silver merit medals are identical. So how does one know

which is which? Fortunately, in good Hannoverian tradition, the recipient's name, title/rank, military unit (whatever might

apply) is impressed on the rim of the medal; and fortunately the rolls to both the Guelphic medal and merit medals are

available. The example shown here is impressed to * Diretrich Meyer Sergeant im 2t. Bat. K.D.L.*

Timing! I was actually reading about this medal and the Guelphic order last night (in Tancred's book, Historical Record of Medals & Honorary Distinctions...). Tancred includes a line drawing of the medal, so one of my 'jobs' today was to find some pictures. Job done!

Tancred mentions that this medal was also struck (rarely) in gold and that both the silver and gold variants were rare...probably because of the pension that went with the medal.

Your medal looks to be virtually mint condition - amazing.

Thanks for sharing!

Edited by Monkey

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eitze, is there any Braunschweig regiment for which you do not have a Waterloo medal? Congratulations on a great collection.

Wild Cat, there are half a dozen Braunschweig regiments which are still on my list.

But let me thank you for starting this wonderful thread :beer:

After all that years it is always a joy to skip through the pages and look at all this fantastic medals !!!

The Guelphic Medal is a very impressive piece - thank you for showing!

Unfortunately they are so high priced today, that they are out of reach for me :blush:

Is it correct, that the main difference between the military and civil division is the adding of the military rank in the naming?

greetings

eitze

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Monkey,

unfortunately the Westphalen medals are rare and even here in Germany it has not been written much about the first (round medal) and the second model (oval medal).

The first model was issued on 17.06.1809 by King Jerome (Hieronymus in German) Napoleon in gold and silver.

In the same year the design was changed into the oval medal, also in gold and silver. The gold medals are ultra rare and I haven`t seen any by now.

All medals were made of gold and silver, but not of bronze.

The second model has two different embossings. The easiest way to see the difference is to count the cannon balls.

The first type has six and the second type has seven.

As you can see, mine belongs to the second type.

Von Hessenthal and Schreiber wrote in their book "Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Reiches", that the 2. not officially embossing was made in Paris/France at a later date. That is all I can add now.

greetings

eitze

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The second model has two different embossings. The easiest way to see the difference is to count the cannon balls.

The first type has six and the second type has seven.

As you can see, mine belongs to the second type.

Von Hessenthal and Schreiber wrote in their book "Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Reiches", that the 2. not officially embossing was made in Paris/France at a later date. That is all I can add now.

greetings

eitze

Many thanks Eitze, that is really helpful. Regards, Owen

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Timing! I was actually reading about this medal and the Guelphic order last night (in Tancred's book, Historical Record of Medals & Honorary Distinctions...). Tancred includes a line drawing of the medal, so one of my 'jobs' today was to find some pictures. Job done!

Tancred mentions that this medal was also struck (rarely) in gold and that both the silver and gold variants were rare...probably because of the pension that went with the medal.

Your medal looks to be virtually mint condition - amazing.

Thanks for sharing!

Hello Monkey,

This is very tricky. Notice the words “... this medal was also struck (rarely) in gold...” True, but my guess is that any of those medals that were struck in gold and awarded, were awarded as gold civil merit medals.

Researching this subject, I find -

1. Hessenthal/Schreiber recognize only a silver medal.

2. In his magnum opus, Jörg Nimmergut quotes Thies/Hapke - “Es ist (lt. Akten Hannoversches Hauptstaatarchiv) sehr wahrscheinlich, daß die Guelphen-Ordens-Medaille auch in Gold verliehen wurde”, which I translate as “It is (according to records Hannoversches Central State Archive) very likely that the Guelphs-Order Medal was awarded in gold”.

3. The 1865 Hannoverian Hof und Staats Handbuch lists the living Guelphic medal recipients; but there is nothing to indicate that any of these medals were gold.

4. The award list of the Guelphic medal as compiled by Col. D. D. Vigors does not show any awards as being in gold. His only reference to the subject is - “Verwechslungen der Guelphen-Medaille mit der Silbernen Verdienst-Medaille, die zur gleiche Zeit gestiftet wurde und die verschiedentlich auch in Gold verliehen wurde, sind leichter möglich.” I translate this to say “Confusion between the Guelphs Medal with the Silver Medal of Merit, which was founded at the same time and was awarded in gold is easy”. He then goes on to describe how the two are identical, as are their ribbons. The key though is, as I translate and interpret it, he is saying that the merit medal was also (in this case meaning additionally) made in gold = silver (only) Guelph, silver and gold Merit. Should any of our German speaking members see this differently, please let us know.

Beyond all of this, it just seems to me that if there were, in fact, any gold Guelphic medals awarded, they would have been recorded as such and well known. So until proof to the contrary is established, I am with those who say that the Guelphic medal is silver... only.

Thank you for the compliment on the medal and best wishes,

Wild Card

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Wild Cat, there are half a dozen Braunschweig regiments which are still on my list.

But let me thank you for starting this wonderful thread :beer:

After all that years it is always a joy to skip through the pages and look at all this fantastic medals !!!

The Guelphic Medal is a very impressive piece - thank you for showing!

Unfortunately they are so high priced today, that they are out of reach for me :blush:

Is it correct, that the main difference between the military and civil division is the adding of the military rank in the naming?

greetings

eitze

Hello Eitze,

I would say yes, with a couple of caveats.

1. Let’s say “...the main difference between the military and civil division is the adding of the military rank and unit/regiment in the naming”.

2. I have seen civil merit medals (not necessarily the first type, “twin” of the Guelphic medal) with a variety of titles including Knochenhauer, Schiffscapitian and Oberwachtmeister.

3. There is a third type (1841-1846) silver merit medal out there named to Kanonier V. D. Meyerkord 6pf Fuss Batt. With that in mind, if a man received the Guelphic medal and a 1st type civil merit medal, he would have two identical, but at the same time very different, medals. I do not know of any such case, but it is an interesting possibility, isn’t it?

I have to tell you a story with a purpose. Some years ago, I was visiting a fellow collector who had a first type civil merit medal. The recipient had a rank and there was a regiment also. When I got home, I checked my copy of the Guelphic medal rolls (he did not have one) and, sure enough, there was his man! He had a Guelphic, not civil merit, medal. We should all be so lucky. So, if any of these medals come your way, check the rolls.

Lastly, with regard to the rolls, a word of caution. Remember these medals were struck and named in England and that we are dealing with German names. As a result, the spelling of the names gets chopped up at times. An interesting example concerns a bugler in the 2nd line battalion of the King’s German Legion. In the Guelphic medal rolls, he is listed as Heinrich Freyhöfer; but in the British military general service medal rolls, he is listed as Heinrich Freihofer. Freyhöfer? Freihofer? Who knows? :whistle:

Good luck on those missing Braunschweig Waterloos. Thank you also for the compliments on the medal and the thread, and best wishes, :beer:

Wild Card

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Wild Card,

You have raised the bar with your knowledge; motivating and very very interesting. Thank you.

Owen

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I checked all the posts here and didn't saw this one...

Hanseatic League Napoleonic Wars Military medal, 1813-1814 in silver (Gemeinsame Kriegsdenkmünze für die Hanseatische Legion 1815)

Ribbon is reproduction.

1803249501445a_l.jpg

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