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Nick Charman

Records for the Hong Kong Police Force before 1941

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Hello - Aberdeen. The picture didn't come out - will be interesting to see it. I didn't know about the different ethnic groups.

Welsome to GMIC - are you in business or, a collector ?

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Hello Mervyn,

Thanks for the welcome.

I am trying below again to attach an image for your reference, hopefully it will come out this time.

FYI: I am a long time medal collector, who also trades as 'Aberdeen Medals'

Yours aye,

Mark

Edited by Aberdeen Medals

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Hi there,

I'm currently writing a dissertation on the history of Royal Hong Kong Police and I'm finding it very difficult to find out salaries. Does anyone know how much the police constables were paid in the 1940s and how much staff/station sergeants were paid in the 1970s?

Many thanks

Ed

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Hi there,

I'm currently writing a dissertation on the history of Royal Hong Kong Police and I'm finding it very difficult to find out salaries. Does anyone know how much the police constables were paid in the 1940s and how much staff/station sergeants were paid in the 1970s?

Many thanks

Ed

Salaries for these ranks were paid,in cash,in Hong Kong dollars on a monthly basis at pay parades,similar to those conducted by the Military.These monthly parades continued until the early 1970s when direct payment to banks were adopted.The pay scales per rank,including allowances,were published in the Hong Kong Government Staff List,(Blue Book) published annually.Many of these Staff Lists are held in the Force Museum,Royal Hong Kong Police Force- see Google for the Curator's address.He should be able to help.

Pre - war payments were pitifull,post war marginally better.Don't forget that pre- war there were several grades of Constable and Staff Sergeants,post war these reduced to a single Constable post with Staff Sgts Grades 1 and 2,replaced by a single grade of Station Sergeant in the reforms of the 1970s.- 1314

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I would like to know if it is possible to find out anything about my Grandfather's stepfather, who I understand was a Sergeant in the Hong Kong Police Force.

His name was Chow King, also spelled Tsau Hing. I have been told that he joined the police force on 11th October 1887 and retired on a pension on 11th October 1907. I do not know his age, or, indeed, anything else about him.

Is it likely that he retired on a pension because he had reached pensionable age, e.g. 65, or because he had completed twenty years service?

If someone can provide information or suggest where I should look for information it would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.

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It appears that this officer completed a total of 20 years service,the usual criteria for the retirement for junior officers at this time.I suggest you contact the Curator,Force Museum,Coombe Road,Hong Kong (see Google) and ask him to search the Blue Books - Police - Pensions sections for the post retirement years.If your man can be located you should have the following information -

Date from which pension was paid,

Amount of pension in HK$

Service prior to retirement (HKP)

Amount of salary pre-retirement in HK$

Age,and

Cause of retirement ( completion of agreement,medical,disciplinary or whatever ).

Further search should reveal year in which pension ceased ie year of death.

1314

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I hope no one minds me tagging onto this informative thread - I recently added to my Channel Island medal collection a British War Medal & Mercantile Marine 1914-18 medal pair named to the following;

William Le Feuvre CHEVALIER.

Born in Jersey in 1880 he served in the merchant navy from at least 1900 and of course during WW1. What came as a surprise is an entry on UK Incoming Passenger Ship Lists dated 13/11/1931 where William is shown as returning to London from Hong Kong on the SS Mantua with his wife Alice & daughter Patrica. Occupation Constable - Home duties done. Last Residence China.

This would suggest to me anyway he was a member of the Hong Kong Constabulary. The question of course is whether there is any information available on William's service with the Force?

Again I apologise if I'm being a little cheeky but his police connection came as a surprise and opens up new avenues in respect of this Channel Islanders story. Any help most appreciated.

Regards

Stuart Elliott

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Brunswick - you are very welcome on GMIC and it is nice to see some life back in this old thread.

There is another thread - probably some way back now - that concerned the settlement at Shanghai.

Mervyn

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Agreed Mervyn -- very pleasing to see the newly added detail --- regret from my point of view I have nothing constructive to add -- but hope this does not "die"

Thank you Gentlemen for your continued interest

Nick Charman

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I am able to provide the service details of a large number of men who served in the HKP from 1844 until 1969,and the RHKP from 1969 to 1997. 1314

enquiring as to information about Millar Robb Dickson; born 1898 Dundee; died1928 Hong Kong, Sergeant Hong Kong Constabulary

I recent found his grave marker in Happy Valley cemetary, and a news clipping on the day of his funeral. I don't know when he joined the force, or anything about his service history, which i am looking for.

also...would there have been autopsies done in 1928....dying suddenly at age 30 just sounds suspicious to me ( especially as long lived this family is....his younger sister, my grandmother was 103 when she died)

Edited by ctonb61

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Millar Robb DICKSON

Born 1898,enlisted 1920 at age 22

Any previous UK Police service,most recruits from Scotland did have previous ?.

Left London on the 24.1.1920 per P & O Khiva,2nd Class,described as ' Male - Government ' for Hong Kong.Single. Would have been taken on strength,and half pay,from date of embarkation,to full pay on attestation on arrival in HK.Ranked as Constable whilst under training,usually 4 months,advanced to Lance Sergeant on satisfactory completion of training.Usual tour was 5 years (therefore to 1925) followed by 3 months UK leave with passages paid.

Left London on 29.1.1926 for HK per P & O Morea. Again 2nd class,still single.Would then have been advanced to Sergeant,in which rank he died. Autopsies were performed in cases of sudden and unnatural deaths,though not necessarily in cases where deceased had been seen by a doctor in the preceding 14 days.

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A little more.

As Miller Robb DICKSON he arrived at London per Macedonia on the 4th June 1925,single,2nd class,occupation 'police officer ' and giving his UK address as 361 Strathmartin Street,Dundee,Scotland.His first,and only leave and you will note this lasted until Jan 1926,longer than usual.Extended due to illness ?

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THat is Amazing.....thanks so much for this level of information. As far as i know, MIllar was not sick...although you never know. Many of his sibling emmigrated to Canada in early 1920's, his father had died by 1925, so there was more or less only his mother to visit. If he had been ill, it may have not been reported to the family.

Millar Robb DICKSON

Born 1898,enlisted 1920 at age 22

Any previous UK Police service,most recruits from Scotland did have previous ?.

Left London on the 24.1.1920 per P & O Khiva,2nd Class,described as ' Male - Government ' for Hong Kong.Single. Would have been taken on strength,and half pay,from date of embarkation,to full pay on attestation on arrival in HK.Ranked as Constable whilst under training,usually 4 months,advanced to Lance Sergeant on satisfactory completion of training.Usual tour was 5 years (therefore to 1925) followed by 3 months UK leave with passages paid.

Left London on 29.1.1926 for HK per P & O Morea. Again 2nd class,still single.Would then have been advanced to Sergeant,in which rank he died. Autopsies were performed in cases of sudden and unnatural deaths,though not necessarily in cases where deceased had been seen by a doctor in the preceding 14 days.

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Not really relevant but perhaps of passing interest -

On 9th October 1941 Mrs Helen Millar Robb Dickson of 30 South Tay Street,Dundee was fined 10/- (Ten shillings) for an offence against the Blackout Regulations.

As regards Millar's death in Hong Kong,an examination of the newspapers published around the time of the event might produce some further information as to the cause,but you would need a researcher there to accomplish this.

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Hi Guys,

Does anyone have much information on the Russians who were in the HK Police during the 1930s and 1940s?

My grandfather (AJ Savistky) and his cousin (Vitali 'Vic' Veriga) were two Russian members of the HKP in the 1930s and 1940s (both ended up in Stanley camp during WW2 as 'guests' of the Japanese.

I'd love to find out if any Police records exists for them or any of the other Russians.

Regards,

Mick

ps

Does anyone know if the 1930s KC HK Police hat badge had lugs, a slider or where both used during that period?

Edited by bushchook

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If you read all the posts in this series you will get an idea of the Russian element of the Force.For further reference see the following books - Siu Geng,The HK Marine Police 1841 - 1950 by Iain Ward

The RHKP 1841-1945 by Crisswell and Watson

see also www.gwulo.com/ - and a Yahoo group on "Stanley Camp",in which Savitsky features several times as the Camp artist.

Only those Russians who had been granted British Nationality were interned in Stanley,the remainder had to take their chance in wartime Hong Kong,attempt to return to China from which most had come,or move on.

As regards the pre war cap badge,for Other ranks it was a simple Crown with a slider; the senior ranks wore a White Metal/Chrome Royal cypher.

Other ranks did not wear collar dogs ( lugged badges n the lapels);the senior officers wore a white metal/chrome crowned circlet bearing the Colony Arms,(no scroll as post war) with lugs.

Whilst there are now few,if any,original records left,certainly no personnel files,the Russians have been quite well documented by others- get digging and googling !

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Hi,

>>If you read all the posts in this series you will get an idea of the Russian element of the Force.For further reference see the following books - Siu Geng,The HK Marine Police 1841 - 1950 by >>Iain Ward

>>The RHKP 1841-1945 by Crisswell and Watson

Thanks - will check these books out.

>>see also www.gwulo.com/ - and a Yahoo group on "Stanley Camp",in which Savitsky features several times as the Camp artist.

I know Gwulo and the yahoo group since I started it!! I was hoping to get some more info here rather than just be refered back to my group :)

>>Only those Russians who had been granted British Nationality were interned in Stanley,the remainder had to take their chance in wartime Hong Kong,attempt to return to China from which most had come,or move on.

Yes that is indeed correct. My great grandmother (grandparent's become British subjects) remained in Kowloon during the war as she was considered non British.

As regards the pre war cap badge,for Other ranks it was a simple Crown with a slider; the senior ranks wore a White Metal/Chrome Royal cypher.

Other ranks did not wear collar dogs ( lugged badges n the lapels);the senior officers wore a white metal/chrome crowned circlet bearing the Colony Arms,(no scroll as post war) with lugs.

Whilst there are now few,if any,original records left,certainly no personnel files,the Russians have been quite well documented by others- get digging and googling !

OK thanks re badges- and yes, have been doing a lot of digging and googling over the years and then came across this thread.

Mick

Edited by bushchook

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Sorry to have referred you back to your original site Mr Martin,perhaps if you had stated this to start with it might have saved some (now) unneccessary effort.From your own efforts you will no doubt have details of the 60 odd Russians who served from 1930 until the 1960's retirement of Leo Karpovitch,so I won't bother to repeat them.Enjoy your research.

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Cheers Mr 1314!

Another quick one - why are the HK Police badges so scarce these days? I heard that most of them were taken or destroyed by the Japanese.

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A good question which merits a detailed answer,and which may be of interest to other Forum members with an interest in the HKP.Pre war issues of insignia were basic,much was lost during the battle for HK,the expats generally took their uniform into camp with them,if it had not been lost during the fighting,the locals were perhaps less conscientious and would have disposed of items which they considered might have jeopardized them or their famililies in the eyes of the Japanese.Not an unreasonable approach bearing in mind the Japanese views on a defeated force.Much of what was hidden was never recovered,the pre war cap badge,a simple crown,was not ' identifiable ' as of HKP origin.As regards the belief that the Japanese sequestered items of equipment,this is no doubt true,it was war,HK lost,and amongst dreadfull atrocities,looting took place.I do not believe there was a concerted effort to round up HKP items.In fact some photos of life in Stanley show police officers in what remained of their uniforms,with cap and badge.It seems that as long as the amp was quiet,the Japanese didn't worry too much about who wore what provided it did not insult them in any way.

Post war,the Force had to start from scratch,initially using what gear had been salvaged,borrowing much from the Services until UK,or emergent local suppliers,could be mobilized.From the re-establishment of civil government in 1946 things began to look up,and the Crown Agents resumed their pre-war role of suppliers of everything to the Colonies.Immediate post war badges (and insignia) were of poor quality,base metal,thinly struck,easily bent,broken and polished away.This improved and the usual UK suppliers began to provide a stouter series of insignia. - More later -

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Against the background of my Post #47 - Two cap badges were issued to each officer,a wear and a spare.On leaving the Force on retirement an officer was allowed to retain one as a souvenir on strict condition that they must not be used for any other purpose but no doubt some of these were sold on.The same applied on the change of realm and issue of the new badges.

Eventually two qualities of badge emerged,those destined for the officers were the best and from UK suppliers,those for the junior officers (R & F) were locally produced.Gaunt,Dowler etc all appear on the sliders of the officer's badges,in some cases there are the names of the local makers and it was also the practice amongst jpo's to scratch their Force Number ( 4 digits) on the slider,with occasionally their name in characters.

At present on E-Bay there is a KGV1 cap badge,mounted on wooden plaque, at GBP200.oo (no bids) and an HKP shoulder title,apparently the pre war type, at GBP74 with 10 bids.So the market is strong.

PS - Pre war the Indian Contingent,who wore turbans,apparently did not wear the 'crown' cap badge,possibly because the slider would not hold.I have not encountered an HKP Cap badge with a long pin,as was customary amongst Turbaned troops of the empire.The 1968 RHKP badge,blue enamelled,is common enough,from many different makers,different shades of blue and frequently copied for the collectors market.

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For anyone who collects to the HKP/RHKP. I have just noticed on Norman Colletts List ( of todays date) an item which may be of interest.

Item 4980.

OBE, 39-45 star, Pacific Star, Defence, War, GSM Bar Malaya (Renamed) Colonial Police medal for Merit (A/Supt), Malaya Most Exhalted Order of Realm 2nd Class and the Pingat Peringatan medal.

To C.A.A. Nicol Assistant Commisioner HKP

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Noted with thanks.He served in the HKP from 1940 (Interned in Stanley ) until 1951 when he transferred to Malaya on promotion at a time when Malaya needed Cantonese speakers.

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