Jump to content
Gentleman's Military Interest Club
Vatjan

ORDER OF THE RED COMBAT BANNER

Recommended Posts

ORDER OF THE RED COMBAT BANNER

T1: Screwback - 3 rivets - Serial number under the screwpost

T2V1: 1970's Pinback - 3 rivets - serial number 12 o'clock

T2V1: 1970's Pinback - 2 rivets - serial number 5 o'clock

PIC: T1

Edited by vatjan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Order of Combat Red Banner

1st award

Type 1 (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost)

Low = 98 High = 2640

Type 2.1 (Pinback 3 rivets; SN at 12 o'clock)

Low = 3160 High = 4449

Type 2.2 (Pinback 2 rivets; SN at 5 o'clock)

Low = 4685 High = 5380

2nd award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost)

Low = 12 High = 398

3rd award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost)

No SN data

4th award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost)

No SN data

Sources:

Eric and Jan

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3249&st=0

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3249&st=13

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a very nice collection you have there, congratulations. :jumping::jumping:

What are the serial numbers?

Jan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a very nice collection you have there, congratulations. :jumping::jumping:

What are the serial numbers?

Jan

I have in my collection:

T1: Screwback - 3 rivets # 50, 704, 1871, 1876, 1974, 2244

2nd award # 12, 98, 224, 248

3rd award # 106, 110, 168

4th award # 86

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have in my collection:

T1: Screwback - 3 rivets # 50, 704, 1871, 1876, 1974, 2244

2nd award # 12, 98, 224, 248

3rd award # 106, 110, 168

4th award # 86

Bold question: where did you buy these? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bold question: where did you buy these? :)

I am buying orders directly from Mongolia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

beautiful awards. I bet that these beauties are expenisive as heck!

An :off topic: question... Did mongolia have guards units, where the members wore guards badges simular to that of the Soviets?

Regards

Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

beautiful awards. I bet that these beauties are expenisive as heck!

An :off topic: question... Did mongolia have guards units, where the members wore guards badges simular to that of the Soviets?

Regards

Paul

While I'm not sure this answers your question, Paul, no such badges are shown in Battushig's fine book.

Ed

Edited by Ed_Haynes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I losing my sanity??

(OK, don't answer THAT.)

Evereything we know, everything I have read, tells us that these things were issued with no number, "2", "3", and "4". Awards through "4". Fair enough.

BUT: In evidence, the famous Choibalsan photo (Battushig p. 20). Unless I cannot count (as I tell my students, there are three kinds of historians, those who can count and those who can't), I count five (5!) OCRBs. Now, I do not see any numbers on any of them. We all know Choibalsan was, well, er, "special", but . . . ???

Edited by Ed_Haynes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To add more mud to the Mongol waters, an earlier snap of a younger and more cheerful Choibalsan (Battushig p. 28) with his 5 (!) ORBMVs (though the picture is pretty clear and it does not seem as if any of them have numbers).

Edited by Ed_Haynes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welllll, considering there was NO "combat" in Mongolia from the month of August 1939 until August 1945 and none at all thereafter (? 1960s border incidents with the Chinese?) what were ANY of these for? That's less than two months in the last 60 years of armed "combat," period.

So while Gloriously Inflated, the NAME of this Order cannot actually have much real bearing on what it was ACTUALLY awarded for.

The Military Merit Order seems to have been for 15 years of long service-- were these ...Banners

given for 20 (and 30, and...)?

And ought with in the interests of Accurate Translation to call them Order of MILITARY (as opposed to labor) Red Banner rather than the entirely false... colors... 99.99% of them are flying under? :rolleyes::ninja:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good question and one that keeps cropping up. So many military/combat orders, medals........... but no fighting??

Maybe they fought in Korea under another flag??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Am I losing my sanity??

(OK, don't answer THAT.)

Evereything we know, everything I have read, tells us that these things were issued with no number, "2", "3", and "4". Awards through "4". Fair enough.

BUT: In evidence, the famous Choibalsan photo (Battushig p. 20). Unless I cannot count (as I tell my students, there are three kinds of historians, those who can count and those who can't), I count five (5!) OCRBs. Now, I do not see any numbers on any of them. We all know Choibalsan was, well, er, "special", but . . . ???

What a nice belt :love:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rick ® has raised a couple of questions. Let me see what answers I can provide.

Welllll, considering there was NO "combat" in Mongolia from the month of August 1939 until August 1945 and none at all thereafter (? 1960s border incidents with the Chinese?) what were ANY of these for? That's less than two months in the last 60 years of armed "combat," period.

Well, not strictly true. Based on Battushig's coverage of military history, what is in the often unreliable US "country handbook", and on those few other sources on Mongolian history that I have at hand:

liberation war - 1921-22

suppression of insurgents - 1931-37

war against Japan - 1937-45

clashes with China - 1947-48

I know there is an ongoing quibble over the English word "combat". Until I know what the real (Mongolian) name of the various awards says, I shall pass up getting involved in this.

The Military Merit Order seems to have been for 15 years of long service-- were these ...Banners

given for 20 (and 30, and...)?

The awards as given for long service 1947-59 (only) are very complex and confusing. As Battushig liosts these (p. 26, I can extract:

Military, Interior, and Border Troops:

10 years - Honorary Medal of Combat

15 years - Order of the Polar Star

20 years - Order of Combat Valor

25 years - Order of the Red Banner of Combat Valor

30 years - Order of Sukhbaatar

Teachers:

10 years - Honorary Medal of Labor

15 years - Order of the Polar Star

20 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor

30 years - Order of Sukhbaatar

Battushig also lists an interesting, complex, and quite obviously confused third category, that of medical personnel. There were different standards depending whether on where you served in the city of Ulanbaatar, in the wilds of the Gobi desert, or elsewhere in the rural regions of the country. While I think Battushig has these confused (and I am asking him for clarification), he shows:

Ulanbaatar:

10 years - Order of the Polar Star

20 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor

25 years - Order of Sukhbaatar

Other non-Gobi rural:

5 years - Order of the Polar Star

15 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor

15 (?!) years - Order of Sukhbaatar

Gobi desert:

3 years - Order of the Polar Star

10 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor

10 (?!) years - Order of Sukhbaatar

Yes, something seems confused here . . . ?

This "senior awards for long service" nonsense (learned from the Soviets) was stopped in 1959.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, but they weren't handing out several thousand Orders into the 1990s for... before WW2.

Unlike the Soviets, I don't think they ever DID stop handing out Orders for mere long service... because there are no Mongolian long service medals...

and there is absolutely nothing "combat" to justify the steady, continuous, non-ending progression of said awards right up to the change in government structure, otherwise.

Dr. Battushig also erred about military long service awards:

evidence for which is my one and only Orders Book (shown in the thread on same) swith a MMM and a MMO 5 years later. So MMM for 10, and the MMO for 15 based on recipient's initial rank. Since my Orders Book shows an officer in uniform, we can at least tell what he was when the first award was made.

Still interesting early learning days in this field, which keeps pulling me back here. (But no, I think I am immune to the allure of Excellent Herdsmen, thanks all the same :cheeky::cheers: )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One might add, still according to Dr Battushig, that from 1959 onward for army and police staff following standards were set:

10 years of distinguished service Combat Service medal

15 years of distinguished service Combat Service order

Jan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One might add, still according to Dr Battushig, that from 1959 onward for army and police staff following standards were set:

10 years of distinguished service Combat Service medal

15 years of distinguished service Combat Service order

Jan

Thanks, Jan, for the clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I'm not sure this answers your question, Paul, no such badges are shown in Battushig's fine book.

Ed

Ed,

Mongolian Border Guards Badges?

There are 2 pages full of them in Dr. Battusig's book (pages 88 and 89) ! I guess we do have the same book! :D

I have myself a small collection of these Border Guards Badges ( 19 in all, counting different types and variations ) as it is a subject I like.

Also like the State Security ones theme, Police, Army and Agriculture, and do have a decent collection on all these themes.

Dolf

Edited by Dolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ed,

Mongolian Border Guards Badges?

There are 2 pages full of them in Dr. Battusig's book (pages 88 and 89) ! I guess we do have the same book!

I have myself a small collection of these Border Guards Badges ( 19 in all, counting different types and variations ) as it is a subject I like.

Also like the State Security ones theme, Police, Army and Agriculture, and do have a decent collection on all these themes.

Dolf

Well, no, Dolf. The question was about GUARDS (military) badges (similar to the Soviet, Cuban, etc. guards badges discussed by Paul on orther threads here), not BORDER Guards. Border guards we all know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, no, Dolf. The question was about GUARDS (military) badges (similar to the Soviet, Cuban, etc. guards badges discussed by Paul on orther threads here), not BORDER Guards. Border guards we all know.

Ed,

Oh, I'm deeply sorry, I guess I misunderstood the question! :blush:

Anyway, I suppose only the Red Army had Guards units, so most probably they are the only ones who have such Badges I guess.

Well, I guess we can find similar military units on other countries (guards were elite units in the Red Army, right?) but I don't know and never heard about similar units in Mongolian Army.

Cheers,

Dolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No problem, Dolf, just glad (realy glad) to see you over here!!

Help us disentangle all the mysteries of Mongol awards, please. We know so little. It is fun!

:beer:

(I shall be asking the fabled Dr. B about this this summer.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×