Jonathan Hopkins

Order of Medjidie

49 posts in this topic

How can one distinguish between the various Classes of the Order of Medjidie awarded to British officers for their service during the Sudan campaign of the late 1890s? What is the significance of the round bit on the medal's ribbon? I am especially interested in the differences between 3rd and 4th Class.

Thank you,

Jonathan

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ID: 2   Posted (edited)

Dear Jonathan ,

There are many kind of different Medjidie Orders made in many different countries since the period of Sultan Abdulmecit till the end of Ottoman Empire , Starting the Turkish Republic.

As many times it was mentioned (Although it is a little more complicated which i will try to describe for you here shortly ...) , a quick way for you to understand is , the ones with the

"Darphane-i Amire" ( the official Ottoman Mint which was located in Istanbul ) hallmarked (it is in the center of the reverse) are Turkish made ones... Some of them has the "Sah Mark" (Metal Purity)

some doesn't have , some of them has the master mark , some doesn't have , some of them has only the mint mark and vs... There are also many nice examples of the Medjidie orders which are made

in France such as Halley , La Foyalle and etc .. Also perfect and the most rare examples such as Rothe Made in Austria Wien , and the British Made ones , Crimean Period and etc ....

The main difference between the 3rd and 4 th Classes are the ribbons , 3 rd Class has the Neck ribbon , but the 4th Class has the normal breast ribbon... On the up of the Red Enameled Crescent and Star

of the 4th classed one you will see a silver circle connection ring , but on the 3rd classed one , the Crescent & Star is a whole part with a long silver ring which the neck ribbon is passing thorough inside ..

Both of them do not have the breast stars.

.... altough both of them has the gold center 3rd and 4th class ... ( The 5th Class have the Silver Center , the place which the Tughra , Signature of the Ottoman Empire's Sultan Marked) .

If you ask about the sizes , it is really a complicated big subject , for example , as opposite of many people knows , in reality , the First Class Orders are Smaller sized then the 3rd Class orders...

but of course the 1st Class Breast Stars are bigger then the 2nd class Breast Stars....

Hope it helps ,

Kind Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Edited by avsaribar

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A Turkish Made 1st Class Medjidie Order ...

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A Crimean Period 1 st Class Medjidie Order ...

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A 3rd Class Medjidie Order with Sabers ...

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And a few pictures which I wrote this year for a Numismatic Journal 2010 about Turkish Orders ...

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Avsar,

Thank you for your detailed reply. The photos are excellent and the medals or really quite stunning. My question was prompted by some research I am conducting. I am trying to identify a British officer based on his medals as depicted in a photo. The officer is wearing an Order of Medjidie, and I was not able to determine which Class. Do you mind giving me your opinion? I am guessing that it is not 3rd Class since his is worn on his breast rather than his neck. Is that correct?

Thank you,

Jonathan

officer.jpgmedals.jpg

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ID: 12   Posted (edited)

Dear Jonathan ,

You are welcome , What you mentioned is exactly correct , it is definitely NOT a 3rd Class , also it is NOT a foreign made Medjidie Order , from the shape/style of the order , I can say that it is an Ottoman Made Medjidie order.

Of course , the picture is Black/White (We can not understand the Center is gold or Silver) and not targeted/detailed on the Medjidie Order , but i feel from the size like it is a 4th class with Rosette , not a 5th class ....

It could be very easy , if we could see the center of the order to tell you exactly but .....

Hope it helps...

All the best ,

Avsar

Edited by avsaribar

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ID: 13   Posted (edited)

Avsar,

You have been tremendously helpful. I believe it is Lt.-Col. Henry Marwood of the North Staffordshire Regiment. According to the 1899 Hart's List:

Major Marwood served in the operations in Zululand in 1888. Served with the Dongola Expeditionary Force under Sir Herbert Kitchener in 1896 with the 1st Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment (mentioned in despatches, Brevet of Major, 4th Class ot the Medjidie, and Khedive's Medal with Clasp).

I would not have been able to make this educated guess without your kind assistance!

Warm Regards,

Jonathan

Edited by Jonathan Hopkins

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Dear Avsar,

Further to this topic can you advise how and when the Khedive received authority to award Ottoman Orders to Egyptian and British personnel? I am aware that the Khedive instituted his own medals - the Khedive's Star 19882, Sudan Medal 1896-1908 & Sudan Medal 1910-21 - were these issued directly under his intiative or ultimately with the authority of Istanbul? With the enforced abdication of Abbas Hilmi in in 1914 and the onset of the Great War I would assume that the award of the Mejidjie and Osmanie by his sucessor Sultan Hussain Kamel ceased. (The latter Sudan medal continued under Sultan Hussain Kamel and Sultan Fouad with the obverse Abbas Hilmi naming changed circa 1917/18 to that of Fouad the First.) Any thoughts you can share would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,

Owain

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Hello Avsar Ibar

I am very impressed with your knowledge of this Order. And I wonder if you would care to comment on this ser of 2nd class with swords I have had for a long time now.

From what I have been told, this type of award with swords was a late addition to the order, possibly linking to WW1 alliance with the Central Powers whose military personnel were used to receiving "military divisions" of their respective orders. Could you confirm that, or could this "with sabers" award have antidated WW1 ?

This set has the Turkish Mint marks on the reverses of each badge and comes in an original box which also has marking, which I will show in my next message, this first picture having saturated this post.

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next ......

This marking is found on the inside of the lid, which is cusioned with white satin. I hope this picture will be sufficiently clear:

Would such a set have been available for award to a Turkish officer or would it have been restricted to allies ?

Thank you for your comments. Every bit of information will be gratefully received.

Sincerely

Veteran

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Dear Veteran ,

1. Very Nice Set .

2. Very beautiful later period type ( paperboard type ) box .

3. Wrong Ribbon .

Yes , Sword subject is a late addition to the orders related with WW1 .

It is impossible to determine if this set was awarded to a Turkish Officer or a Foreign Officer without it's berat ( Certificate ) .

Because same kind of orders awarded to Turks and Allies .

Only if you could have it's award certificate , in the front you can find the receipents name and on the back nook it was written which kind of order was awarded , if it was with swords , it was written as "...with Swords " .

Ofcourse all in Ottoman Language .

Another thing i can say is as i mentioned that box is a later type box so we can think that probably this set was awarded in 1900 ss...

Also the type of your orders are Ottoman mint made but later type . ( Mostly Mehmed Reshad Period Medjidie orders are in that type even some of that orders as your's type has the Tughra Mark on the back ... )

As thoose swords are usually additions to the existing orders , the older ones has the Cotton Velvet boxes . It means that receipent get the order before , in ww1 he served , and swords added ...

Kind Regards ,

Avsar Ibar

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Ps : Only thoose later Paperboard Type boxes have that beautiful Tughra Mark inside of the lid . Velvet types do not have it .

That mark is not related with swords or to whom it was awarded , Turk or Foreign ...

Velvet boxes have the Tughra Mark on the front cover not inside but your box has the Tughra inside , you did not post it's front cover picture but on the front cover instead of Tughra you must have a Cresent and Star .

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ABOUT KHEDIVE ;

Dear Owain ,

Khedive was an title used for the Governor's of Egypt by Ottoman Empire . This title was first awarded to Ismail Pasha at 8 June 1866 by Ottoman Sultan Abdulaziz .

After Ismail Pasha , this title was passed to his son ( With the order of Sultan 2nd Abdulhamid ) Teyfik Pasha ( 1879 - 1892 ) and Abbas Hilmi Pasha ( 1892 - 1914 ) . At 1914 as Great Britain occupied Egypt , Khedive title passed to his uncle Huseyin Kamil but Ottoman Government accept Abbas Hilmi Pasha until 1922 as Khedive instead of Huseyin Kamil.

At 24 July 1923 with the Lozan Agreement , the Khedive subject was finished .

From start to the end of this system , The Khedive could Only award Ottoman Orders to Egyptian and British Officers with the Order and Permission of Istanbul (The Sultan) .

About how they mint their own medals , there is not to much information we can find but what i believe is they were issued until their own initiative . Normally Ottoman Empire would not let it to be done but that period was the very weak times of the Empire . Including the 1st Khedive Ismail Pasha , all the Khedives want Egypt to be independence and break up from Ottoman Empire .

They always tried to act like an independent Sovereign , for example at 1869 , at the inauguration of Suez Canal , he invited the foreign head of States to Egypt without the permission of the Ottoman Sultan . Then he sold the share certificates of the Sues Canal to Great Britain ...

Hope it helps ,

Avsar IBAR

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Dear Avsar Ibar

Thank you ever so much fot these clear explanations. The fact that swords might have been later additions to the 2nd class set nerver occured to me.

The badges have the tougra on the reverse. Would a picture of that help date the set ?

With a blow-up of the gold lettering

Thank you again for your invaluable comments

Regards

Veteran

P.S. I attended an international professional congress in Istanbul last June and I was greatly impressed. This was my first visit to your Country. Congratulations.

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Hello Avsar,

Thank you for sharing your wonderful knowledge with us all. This is knowledge that only comes with long experience and not information in any book. Even the massive Erureten and Tarihi book on Ottoman ODM provides limited information on the Order of Medjidie (at least in the English language sections).

I was particularly interested in your information about the different cases from different periods. I've matched the 3rd Class Medjidie which I picked up from you with a paperboard case with the white satin and printed tughra inside the lid. Could you comment on the period of the medal? It is a later Ottoman mintage but unsure if it is a 1900s award that would match the case.

It does dsplay very well though, even if it is not the correct period case.

Have you thought about writing an article for the OMSA magazine? It would be a very useful resource for everyone with an interest in these beautiful Orders.

Gavin

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Hello Dear Gavin ,

You and all our other friends in GMIC are always welcome .

I believe your order is earlier then 1900s . I think end of 19th century.

We know that paperboard boxes are later type but we do NOT know the exact date , when they take the place of cotton velvet ones ...

So , your order looks perfect in that box !

If i will find an old neck ribbon , i will be very happy to send it to you as a present .

Best Regards ,

Avsar

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Thanks very much Avsar, and I do hope that you might consider writing an article for the OMSA Journal - even if it is a translation of your article for the Turkish numismatic journal.

I'd be more than happy to help with the English editting if that would help!

That's a very nice offer for an old neck ribbon. I'm very pleased with how your medal and the box (which I bought from Chelsea Militaria in London) displays together.

All the best!

Gavin

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Dera Avsar,

Many thanks for you insights on the awards made by the Khedive. I am aware that Emperor Menelik II of Ethiopia , ruled 1889-1913, was awarded either the Osmanie or Mejdidje - I think the latter. As Ethiopia is a neighbouring country to Egypt/Sudan and there were border concerns for the British/Egyptian government I am of the view that this award (mid/late 1890s?) would have been from the Khedive to a Head of State, rather than the Caliph in Istanbul. Your comments would imply that the Khedive's authority to issue awards would have extended to such senior bestowals.

Again thank you,

Owain

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Hello to everyone,

I have a German medal bar from WWI with a 5th class (I think).

Dean

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