Bavaria What do you know about Bavarian MVOs and MVKs

[Beau Newman]

W.Co.

[zarusthra]

W.Co.

so is that on the reverse right sword with the o at the tip and the w and c covered by the cross point?

[Beau Newman]

Yes.

[zarusthra]

Where did you get your info on war time period etc?

I have a small collection of mvk's and mvo's and getting any info other than through things like this is almost impossible!

Anyone out there know possible issued quantity numbers for the 3 classes and the w w/o swords and crowns variations?

Also would love to see pics of early - pre-1905 versions when there was only 2 classes!

[Beau Newman]

A 1905-1913 2nd Class (the 1st Class had enameled centers). This one is marked "900GH" between the arms. The medallions have separately applied devices.

[Beau Newman]

The reverse:

[Beau Newman]

And even earlier - A MVK type of 1866-1905. Only 1 class which was a silver enameled cross without flames between the arms and gold centers. The swords were not authorized until 1891 but, apparently, could be added by recipients back to 1866. This one is marked "AH" on the ribbon ring for Adam Hausinger.

[Beau Newman]

The reverse:

[zarusthra]

I thought that would be an MVO 2nd class - early style - with the orginal mvk being the same except non enamel arms????

I have an mvo 4th with flames - war issue - and was always under the impression that the mvk had only center enameling (and the early first grade was silver - gilt added when they made 3 levels)

my bad on my earlier - knew the progression of 1 then 2 then 3 just messed up on the years

[Beau Newman]

It is a bit confusing. The MVO had 2 classes of Knight from 1866 to1905. The Knight 1st Class was retained unchanged as the 3rd Class Order after 1905. The 2nd Class Knight was a gold enameled cross without flames. This was replaced in 1905 by the 4th Class Order which is the familiar silver enameled cross with flames. Here is a pre-1905 Knight, 2nd Class. It is the same as the pre-1905 MVK except the cross is gold instead of silver.

[zarusthra]

Well thanks alot for all the education!!!!

I am somewhat new to medal/orders - weltkrieg guy but have been focused on edged weapons/guns/uniforms etc (all imperial of course!) for the last 25years - and have started on this new area for the past 6 or so months.

Have upcoming EU travel in my future so the more education I get now the better off I am when I roam around central europe looking for those needles in the haystack! (easier to bring home than a gew98!)

So do you have any idea on how many were actually awarded of the variant?

As you see I have the 1st class plus the second I also pictured - but have 3rd with swords and a 3rd with swords/crowns - plus my mvo 4

Would love to get all 3 classes in all version!!!

[Wild Card]

Hello, what was the difference between zinc and war metal? I thought they were the same.

Hello avadski,

Not being a metallurgist, I cannot claim to be an expert on the topic, but I will pass on what I do know and think.

First, zinc is an identifiable element, symbol Zn. So, I guess that means that it is that sort of thing that stands alone

with it’s own unique characteristics that cannot be broken down any further, like carbon, iron or even oxygen. War

metal, on the other hand is made up of several different components and the proportions of these components can

vary from batch to batch.

If you take a close look at the crosses in posts 2, 3, 25 and 26, you may be able to tell that the swords and crown

are made from a metal which is different from the metal of which the crosses are made.

Again, I am not an expert on these matters and will gladly defer to any other member who might be able to give more

accurate information on this question.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[zarusthra]

So while this is active - any thoughts on this MVO????

900 on the ring

950 jl on susp

looking for 350 - does that sound like a deal????

[zarusthra]

Also has this for $650 - wco on susp plus 900 on the ring

[Wild Card]

So while this is active - any thoughts on this MVO????

In introducing this thread, to keep it manageable I was rather hoping that we would stay with material confined

to the crosses. As you can see, in a relatively short time, we have gone to fifty posts on the crosses; and there is

still a lot that will hopefully be brought out.

I would therefore like to ask that we continue to stay with the crosses here. A separate thread on the order crosses

and stars would be a great idea though.

Thank you.

Wild Card

[avadski]

Hello avadski,

Not being a metallurgist, I cannot claim to be an expert on the topic, but I will pass on what I do know and think.

First, zinc is an identifiable element, symbol Zn. So, I guess that means that it is that sort of thing that stands alone

with it's own unique characteristics that cannot be broken down any further, like carbon, iron or even oxygen. War

metal, on the other hand is made up of several different components and the proportions of these components can

vary from batch to batch.

If you take a close look at the crosses in posts 2, 3, 25 and 26, you may be able to tell that the swords and crown

are made from a metal which is different from the metal of which the crosses are made.

Again, I am not an expert on these matters and will gladly defer to any other member who might be able to give more

accurate information on this question.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Hello,

I got your point then. My thinking always was that the body was made out of zinc, the swords of iron (try magnet) and the crown either iron or bronze.

[militaria0815]

1st class until 1917 w real gold center Weiß & Co. swords by Hemmerle

[avadski]

1st class until 1917 w real gold center Weiß & Co. swords by Hemmerle

Wow, is it a home-made repair or had the makers a deal to provide devices like swords to each other?

[militaria0815]

Wow, is it a home-made repair or had the makers a deal to provide devices like swords to each other?

No home made repair, here is the backside:

[militaria0815]

Here the extremely rare Colonial pattern 1st class (2nd type). Body marked G.H. 900 (900/1000 silver, Gebrüder Hemmerle), swords marked GH. Front center medaillon real gold, cypher L real gold.

[militaria0815]

backside

[avadski]

Today there was a nice Hemmerle 2nd class sold on eBay. For nearly 140 EUR!! What the .... is going on with the prices nowadays? Last year I purchased same class for at most 120 EUR. Also I noticed the different prices between US, UK and German eBay. While German one is reflecting the market prices, the US one is always 15% or more below and the UK one is all extreme. Sometimes you see unbelievable prices which are almost twice as high as on German eBay, sometimes it's twice as low...One is for sure: prices are raising and someone should say 'Stop!' to that.

OK, OK...now I shut up. I just needed to release the pressure

Let's go back to MVKs.

and BTW here's the MVK sold today: http://cgi.ebay.de/Bayerischer-Orden-MVK-1866-Original-Bayern-Merenti_W0QQitemZ300420488355QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitaria?hash=item45f274dca3

Anyone from here got it?

Edited May 2, 2010 by avadski

[zarusthra]

Today there was a nice Hemmerle 2nd class sold on eBay. For nearly 140 EUR!! What the .... is going on with the prices nowadays? Last year I purchased same class for at most 120 EUR. Also I noticed the different prices between US, UK and German eBay. While German one is reflecting the market prices, the US one is always 15% or more below and the UK one is all extreme. Sometimes you see unbelievable prices which are almost twice as high as on German eBay, sometimes it's twice as low...One is for sure: prices are raising and someone should say 'Stop!' to that.

OK, OK...now I shut up. I just needed to release the pressure

Let's go back to MVKs.

and BTW here's the MVK sold today: http://cgi.ebay.de/B...=item45f274dca3

Anyone from here got it?

I saw it before - and would love to ask - how did you quickly from a pic see it was a hemmerle????

I know your experience but what traits do you look for first on mvk's to so quickly spot the who made it and whether it is a fake!

I can id a mauser bayo from 100 feet away but that is by form - trying to learn more about this area and the details!

[militaria0815]

prices are raising and someone should say 'Stop!' to that.

STOP!!! :cheers: :cheers:

Edited May 2, 2010 by militaria0815

[Wild Card]

Hello,

I got your point then. My thinking always was that the body was made out of zinc, the swords of iron (try magnet) and the crown either iron or bronze.

Thank you Avadski, I think that you are setting us off in the right direction.

Yes, the crown and swords are very highly magnetic, which I think would eliminate their being made out of zinc and

probably (?) eliminate the possibility of war metal as well.

Soooo... looking again at my two pieces, something has struck me. These two crosses are, in my opinion, made of

totally different material. Zinc and war metal?

The one with just the swords appears to be of a good, comparatively solid, metallic substance,