EK 1939 EK 2 1939

[Herman]

Hi experts,

I hope the photo's are sufficient enough to give an opinion if it is fake or real.

And perhaps a maker??

Thanks in advance.

regards

Herman

Edited May 17, 2010 by Herman

[Danny70]

Hi Herman,

Better, more detailed photographs are needed to be certain, but I'm not feeling good about that cross.

Regards - Danny

[Herman]

Perhaps a bit better ?!?

[Motorhead]

I can see there is a marking at the ribbon ring...readable?

Micha

[Danny70]

Sorry to say, but it is the '333' fake.

Note the little flaw at the beading edge at the 4pm postion,

also the missing chunk from the top right of the second '1' in the 1813 date.

Regards - Danny

Edited May 18, 2010 by Danny70

[samirarora]

The missing chunk on the second 1 is a pure give away.. thanks for that Danny! Surely, this would only happen on a fake.

Although i looked hard for the beading flaw at 4PM position, but i am afraid i could not quite get what you meant..what kind of flaw is it?

In your earlier post, right after the original ones, that did not have a good enough picture, you mentioned, that you did not get a good feeling about this cross... i would really be grateful, and i know, this only comes with experience, but what is it you noted, that you did not get a good gut feel about the cross?

Thank you and

Best wishes,

samir..

[Herman]

Whoa, you guys are good..... and quick.

After checking the marking on the ring it is indeed reading 333.

The second 1 in 1813 is indeed missing a chunk in the right top. The beading edge flaw i do not find.

As a novice to these items i have a question for Danny70. Is the 333 fake a restrike or just a fake to fool the collectors?

Thanks again for the quick help. You guys really have an eye for the details.

Herman

[Danny70]

I believe that these crosses surfaced sometime in the 1980's with a story that a stash of them had been found in a factory in Strasbourg (I think).

It has been said that they were actually made by some guy in England specifically to fool collectors. (Whether he got his hands on some original dies or not I cannot be sure).

They have also been found with the mark '666' and unmarked examples are out there also. (These are the most dangerous, because the crosses themselves are very

well made and can easily fool someone who doesn't know what to look for).

The die flaw on the arm had been a give away, but has since been corrected on the more recent versions - which are appearing with different markings.

Here is a close up of a different '333' marked cross than that of the thread starter, and the die flaw is clearly seen.

Note also the missing section of the second '1' in the 1813 date.

In the following post I will attach another image that shows another major indentifying feature found on these crosses - it is evidence of re-tooling of

the die used to create the frame. The new beading does not sit correctly on the old beading and these 'teeth-like' marks appear at the conflicting areas.

This feature is usually seen on the 3 and 9 o'clock arms.

Regards - Danny

Edited May 19, 2010 by Danny70

[Danny70]

Evidence of re-tooling of the dies used.

Herman - does your cross have this feature?

Regards - Danny

[Herman]

And right again Danny,

My EK2 shows the die flaw at the 4 o'clock position very clearly on both sides of the cross.

Also the teeth-like marks for retooling the dies appear at the left arm of the cross (9 o'clock position) on both sides of the cross.

I bought this cross some 4 years ago together with a paper envelope, which is presumably fake aswell.

In the same purchase there were also a 1914 ek2 and a 1957 ek2. The 1914 and the 1957 have no marking on the ring.

I paid EUR 125,- and was assured that all ek's were genuine. As German medals are not my speciality i took the vendors word for granted.

I shall post some pictures of these items.

Question for Danny: How do you know all these details? Are you collecting iron crosses for years and years and build a comprehensive knowledge of the crosses?

[Herman]

obverse and reverse ek2 1957

The cross is not magnetic and the core is painted which shows on the rim.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Herman

[Herman]

Obverse an reverse of the ek1914.

The top arm of the cross is a bit off angle. The magnetic core is loose in the silver rim.

The white of the ribbon does not glow in UV. (neither the 1939 and 1957).

regards

Herman

Edited May 19, 2010 by Herman

[Danny70]

Herman,

I am far, far from being an expert having only been collecting EK's for approximately 4 years,

but I suppose the fact that I don't collect any other medal type, I have become somewhat familiar with them.

Unfortunately, I believe that your 1939 EK2 packet is also a well known fake.

Regarding the 1957 EK2, I can't say that I know much about these crosses,

but non-magnetic cores are frequently found (these may be later produced examples.. as I say, not my area at all)

This one however has a bad re-paint.. I would be pretty sure it didn't leave the factory like that.

The 1914 EK2 looks to also have a repaint and the frames polished. The jump-ring has also been poorly repaired.

Regards - Danny

Edited May 19, 2010 by Danny70

[Brian Wolfe]

Hello Everyone,

I am responding to this post with the hope that reviving it will give others the opportunity to learn form it.

This has been one of the most educational albeit short post sessions I've seen in a while.

Well done Danny70 in a full explanation of the problems with this medal. Another member and I are quite interested in learning all we can about TR medals. I'm sure there are more than the two of us but the other member and I have been discussing TR medals through emails for a while now. Good stuff Danny.

Also thank you to Herman as well for starting the post, though I wish the news had been better for you.

Micha your sharp eyes noted the markings on the ring, thanks for pointing that out. You must be a lot younger than me as I didn't see it.

Thanks to all for a very educational post.

Regards

Brian