hunyadi Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 (edited) After pulling out the box of ribbon bars... Well - we are both wrong and right.... here is a sample of what you can expect... Top: clearly its a painted on ribbon bar and the yellow bands on the Service to the Nation are clearly seen - thin tricolor and then on the last part three (gold, silver, bronze) awards of the Public Security Medal. The tricolor is broader on these - pretty clear cut - nice design... Middle: This gets interesting - more than "likely" its two Service to the Nation in silver awards - but here we have the thin tricolor but edged in white?? In fact the painter painted two lines of white with red in the center then two lines with green in the center and the outer portion of the white made the center - then the guy mounts his ribbon bar and puts them on backwards.... Bottom: This is the clincher - here we clearly see the Service to the Nation in Gold followed by the Service to the Nation in Silver - there are no yellow bands on the light blue paper style ribbon. Then we see on the last row the Flood Medal, followed by three of the Public Security Medals (gold, silver, bronze) the paper ribbon uses darker blue but the same thin tricolor as the Service to the Nation in Silver. The top and middle ribbon bars date from about the mid 1960's and have "quality" the lower one dates from the 1970's and 80's when they all went to the really bad looking paper ribbon bars. Hope that helps - Edited October 15, 2010 by hunyadi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 ... Medal of Labour/Service (should be in the second spot), the Workers and Peasants medal (should be first) and the Public Security medal (light blue here): Gents, To my best knowledge, the order is correct, because the Workers, Peasants Medal, as a commemorative medal, first was behind all State Merit Medals. And, the last one, as hunyadi said, the Service to the Country Medal, most probably the Commemorative one. (The name later was changed from Commemorative to Merit, but the medal itself remained the same.) Regards, cimbineus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 ...Top: clearly its a painted on ribbon bar and the yellow bands on the Service to the Nation are clearly seen - thin tricolor and then on the last part three (gold, silver, bronze) awards of the Public Security Medal. The tricolor is broader on these - pretty clear cut - nice design... Fully agree... ...Middle: ... two Service to the Nation in silver awards .... Yes. ...Bottom: ... here we clearly see the Service to the Nation in Gold followed by the Service to the Nation in Silver - there are no yellow bands on the light blue paper style ribbon. Then we see on the last row the Flood Medal... Yes. ... followed by three of the Public Security Medals (gold, silver, bronze) the paper ribbon uses darker blue but the same thin tricolor as the Service to the Nation in Silver. This is a bit shaky, I think. It is possible, but I am not certain. Those also could be Service to the Nation in Silver. ...The top and middle ribbon bars date from about the mid 1960's and have "quality" the lower one dates from the 1970's and 80's when they all went to the really bad looking paper ribbon bars... Fully agree. Regards, cimbineus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 This is a bit shaky, I think. It is possible, but I am not certain. Those also could be Service to the Nation in Silver. I think its pretty clear - considering the awards it would have been awarded to a senior NCO or officer - if these were four Service to the Nation in silver - where are the long service awards?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted October 15, 2010 Share Posted October 15, 2010 ...considering the awards it would have been awarded to a senior NCO or officer - if these were four Service to the Nation in silver - where are the long service awards?? Well, I believe, many philosophical questions could be asked, to whom, why and where are the other awards, if he made a mistake or, if the shop had run out of the correct bars, e.t.c. Those are already different other aspects of that piece, I think. I was only talking about that particular bar, embodied in some pieces of plastic, paint, paper and brass, how it appears and what we can see in its physical reality. Those narrow strips are characteristic for the Service to the Country Medals, either with yellow, or white lines on both sides, or without those lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 (edited) Gents, After my previous intervention I received a PM with some questions. Thank you for that. I think it would be interesting for you if I try to explain my position once more here using an example. Let us suppose, there are two awards: award "A" and award "B". The Statutum of award "A" says: … The ribbon of the medal is middle-blue with a 5 mm central part containing the national colours. And, the founding document of award "B" says: … The ribbon of the medal is middle-blue with a 14 mm central part with the national colors. Now, if you see a separate (!) ribbon with 5 mm central part, what would you say? Certainly, you will say: this is the ribbon of award "A". And accordingly, if you separate those three ribbons from that bar, most probably everyone would say: those are for the Service to the Country Medals. But if it is so, and everything is so self evident (seemingly only!), why I am not certain about those three pieces at the end? Because what hunyadi said, namely, the "constellation" of the bars. Because of their places on the bar, the logic behind, the existence or non existence of some other ribbons in that bar, etc. All these important things could lead to different conclusions, I think. Regards, cimbineus Edited October 20, 2010 by Ulsterman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted October 16, 2010 Share Posted October 16, 2010 (edited) Seriously? I would say you are grasping at straws here....If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its probably a duck - now if its Canadian or Mongolian I dont know for certain - however - It boggles my mind that you would consider during the time of the HUPR in the mid 70's that an individual with less than 10 years of service could receive FOUR Service to the Nation in Silver medals - and a gold one along with the merit medal and distinguished service medal??? In all my documentation and photographs and collection of ribbon bars I have NEVER seen this happen. But you must have so pony up on the photgraphic evidence..... In comparison - I would take Bertalan Farkas's ribbon bar and awards as LACKLUSTER for a career, but he was the one sent into space? I must have the ribbon bar to the 2nd Lt who designed the Air Defense Network from NATO attack - FOUR TIMES OVER... Really??? I must have the golden ribbon bar of all ribbon bars... I bet he was going to get the Hero of the Hungarian Peroples Republic for all the work he (or she) must have done.... but the paperwork fell thru??? Edited October 18, 2010 by hunyadi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Collins Posted October 16, 2010 Author Share Posted October 16, 2010 Gentlemen, It was never my intention to cause such a rift when posting three, simple ribbon bars. I regret the decision- never thought it would lead to this. After all, when the original material (ribbon itself) is deviated from (paper or paint), and given the fact that the designer may use some "artistic license" because of the supplies at hand, what we have here is a representation at best, and will never actually be sure of what we're looking at without the award documents present. And that's well and fine because it is, after all, the way it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 (edited) Gentlemen, It was never my intention to cause such a rift when posting three, simple ribbon bars. I regret the decision- never thought it would lead to this. After all, when the original material (ribbon itself) is deviated from (paper or paint), and given the fact that the designer may use some "artistic license" because of the supplies at hand, what we have here is a representation at best, and will never actually be sure of what we're looking at without the award documents present. And that's well and fine because it is, after all, the way it was. Dear Greg, Do not feel bad, please. Those ribbon bars are interesting, and your conclusions are totally correct. Let me tell you something else, but closely related to this question. Unfortunately, the Hungarian merchant are very inventive. Aiming at foreign buyers sometimes they simply create unique pieces. Just one recent example. On one of the Hungarian auction sites rigth now there are seven (!) artificially composed ribbon bars of all three types (painted plastic, plastic and paper, textile) with some odd and seemingly interesting things. And there are bids on some of those. As you said, in some complex cases without the award documents we cannot be sure. I tried to say the same. Regards, cimbineus Edited October 17, 2010 by cimbineus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 ... I recommend Cimbineus ... Many thanks hunyadi, but that would be too much honour for my modest personality. By the way, let me insert a picayune citation: Personal sensibility is a different question, I think. Regards, cimbineus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted October 17, 2010 Share Posted October 17, 2010 cimbineus, I would consider it an honour to have you join me as the co-host on this forum. That, however, is a personal decision for you to make. The task does not require much time. Just that one visit the forum on a daily basis. If you choose not to become my co-host that is fine to but I value your continued participation. Your in-depth knowledge in Hungarian badges/medals etc. is a definite asset to the HUP Forum. I exchanged some emails with Hunyadi yesterday and he says he will not be visiting this forum in the future. I feel that that is an unfortunate decision on his part but his to make. Regards, Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted October 18, 2010 Share Posted October 18, 2010 My appologies gentlemen - this thread is now tainted with ignorance, stupidity and ego - most of which is my fault. I ask for your forgivness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 WoW!! Interesting thread. I learned a lot here gentlemen. Thanks for keeping it civil. Hunyadi- PLEASE do not leave. I shall miss you if you do! Please, please experts-can you show examples of HUPR fakes that are being sold out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Collins Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 Charles, I would also implore you not to leave. I would hope that we are still all friends/comrades here. Ulsterman, To date, I've not heard of any outright fakes other than the exchanging of the Kadar emblem for the Rakosi emblem (easy enough to do) on certain awards. I would also be curious if there are other types of fakes being sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Gentlemen, There are fakes of the higher end awards. I don't pictures have any on this computer (laptop)but I'll post them as I find them. Regards, Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimbineus Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 . Gents, Let us forget that unfortunate interact and concentrate on our wonderful hobby. Charles, I also ask you to continue your work here. I appreciate your devotion and you can rely on my support too. Regards, cimbineus (P.S.: For fakes and this kind of things I rather start a new thread just to make that topic more "user-friendly".) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 cimbineus, I agree on the selection of a new thread for fakes. Very good idea. Regards, Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Orincsay Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I'm looking forward for a HPR Fake thread, here on GMIC as well. And I'm happy that the gentlemen spirit of this site is still on top here.. We are all ONE big collector family! Greetings, Péter :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Bringing in a recent find - Interior Ministry Academy - Kadar era. You can find more teeth on chickens that you can find these... :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Collins Posted November 3, 2010 Author Share Posted November 3, 2010 Charles, Believe it or not, I had one of those offered to me not too long ago and, like a fool, I hemmed and hawed over the price (I believe it was $70). When I finally made up my mind to go for it, it was gone. Another "the one that got away"... :speechless: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Collins Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 Another Dozsa item... a gymnastics medal from 1953. This is my first Dozsa item from the Rakosi era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Collins Posted November 10, 2010 Author Share Posted November 10, 2010 And the reverse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Collins Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) A very recent acquisition... another sports medal with a "Bastya transitioning to Dozsa" feel to it. It's a light alloy shooting award (1st Place Pistol) obviously awarded by the Internal Ministry in 1961. As you can see, the AVO/AVH cap emblem is a design element on the medal's front (the Bastya connection), while the colours used on the suspension are purple and white (the Dozsa colours). Not a high quality medal by any means, but nice to have nonetheless. Edited January 5, 2011 by Greg Collins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunyadi Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 Thats really interesting - the AVH / AVO style embilum as it was supposed to be "defunct" after Kadar abolished the AVH during the 1956 Revolution... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Craig Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 (edited) Greg, Interesting litle medal. Something is niggling away at the back of my brain about the AVO/AVH style insignia on this medal but it won't pop out. Regards, Gordon Edited January 6, 2011 by Gordon Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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