paul w Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 I have the chance of purchasing this Victorian era Kings Royal Rifle Corps pillbox hat.It comes in a hat tin with the Royal coat of arms embossed on top which has an accompanying label.Any comments on originality would be appreciatedc,cheers, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul w Posted July 12, 2010 Author Share Posted July 12, 2010 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Graham Stewart Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 Two things which strike me is (1)it isn't rifle green and (2)why has a shoulder title been attached??? I may be wrong, but a pillbox cap for the KRR in my opininion should be rifle green, with possibly a splash of red, their facing colour. I'll trawl about for some prints showing it being worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul w Posted July 12, 2010 Author Share Posted July 12, 2010 Cheers Graham,I'd appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted July 12, 2010 Share Posted July 12, 2010 (edited) I have looked at this one many times and then checked my DRs as I was suspicious of the crown and KRR title to the front. I was also suspicious of the tin itself as these were normally for officers only by private purchase. I would not have expected a private to spend money on such an item. And why does it have the Royal Coat of Arms? I would have expected that for a unit that wore the RCoA say on its helmet plate. The 1883 DRs onwards, I know they are for officers Graham , state that no badge was worn on the forage cap so I did not buy this one. I doubt that the ORs would have been different in this repect. I have read that Rifle Green was almost indistinguishable from black so that isn't a problem. In fact, in Jones & Co's catalogue of 1886 it has a note that Rifle Regiments could have their Colonial pattern sun helmets covered with black cloth rather than the more usual white. See the Cameronians thread started by Leigh for a good discussion on this. Stuart Edited July 13, 2010 by Stuart Bates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul w Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 Thanks for that Stuart.I finally got round to visiting the Royal Green Jackets Museum at Winchester yesterday (the wife loved it!lol).I got some pics of quite a few items including some pill box caps.They're not great what with the glare from the glass but I think you can get an idea of colour and decorative items.Most I believe, are officers caps and none carried any sort of badge,first ones from The Rifle Brigade,cheers, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul w Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 2.This ones from the 60th Rifles (KRRC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul w Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 Sorry,did'nt add the pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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paul w Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 Another from the Rifle Brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul w Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 (edited) Paul, in post #12 item 1 on the list is a 60th Tropical helmet. Was it a Colonial pattern and do you remember whether it was white, khaki or black? And are the pillbox caps black or a very dark green? Stuart Edited July 14, 2010 by Stuart Bates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 (edited) I just read the description again and that paper label pasted to the interior is interesting. Why does it mention both headsize and the belt? A strange marriage. It is typewritten and the first QWERTY typewriter with upper and lower case was the Remington 2 which started production in 1878. The first "visible" typewriter came in about 1895. "Visible" here meaning that the operator could see the characters as they were typed. I wonder when typewriters were introduced to the British Army. Certainly in 1891 Remington claimed that there were over 100,000 typewriters in use. But this is 7 years after the 1884 stamp on the chinstrap. Just rambling a bit here. Having found the label any old belt could have been obtained and it doesn't look to be for a particularly "wide girth." I wear a size 38" belt for a size 32" waist and it, when wrapped around itself, seems to be about the same length as the one shown. Anyway flogging a dead horse here as the crown and the KRR title are the killers. Stuart Edited July 14, 2010 by Stuart Bates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Note the decorative lace patterns on the top of the original items compared with that for sale and also the fact that the cord boss is well off centre in the for sale item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Four senior ranks of the 4th Bn, Rifle Brigade, borrowed from "Soldiers of the Queen" website, clearly showing that their pillbox caps didn't have cord bosses attached to the crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul w Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 Thanks for the input guys.I'm not sure what the label in the tin is supposed to be,a sort of issue form for requisitioned kit?The cap in the first pic is completely black and looks like the ones worn by the NCOs in the pic posted by Graham.The others are black and green.I took quite a few pics Stuart,including this one,enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Note that the pattern on the top of the cap appears to be 'cut out' in that shape, rather than composed of braid/cord etc. I don't believe this would be seen on any genuine item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Bates Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) It just gets worse. The stitching of the top decoration is a bit wonky and is visible on the interior. Does this mean that ORs' caps did not have a lining? Timothy, I see what you mean about its not being braid at all and officers had 8 loops of ornamentation not the 4 shown as Graham pointed out. Don't tell me that ORs' caps did not have 8 also? Gad! we have exhumed the horse and flogged it some more Stuart Edited July 15, 2010 by Stuart Bates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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