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Ok,

this is primary source info, so take it for what it is... interprate what you will....

An added note... low numbers may mean a unit is rarer than another, but it does not mean it is automatically more desirable....

Although in the Case of the S.A. Sharpshooters... I would buy em! :-)

on a couple of units i have subtracted 1 or 2 men of the roll, just so I can see where it is from if it turns up elsewhere...

Best

Chris

War and Victory medals

Numbers on the Roll as of

29.1.21

S.A. Field Artillery Europeans - 2 759

S.A. Field Artillery Natives – 786

S.A. Heavy Artillery – 3 231

Misc. Trades Coy. – 465

C.A.H.T.C. – 6 323

S.A.S.C. – 8 717

1st and 2nd Mtd Brigades – 8 322

S.A. Ordinance – 13

Military Police – 11

S.A.R. Gangers – 10

S.A.R.os.D.S. – 718

S.A.W.S.C. – 182

4th S.A. Horse – 1 201

1st Special S.A. Engineers – 179

A.G. Base – 130

S.A. postal Corps – 30

S.A. Vetinary Corps – 1 090

10th S.A. Horse – 1 070

S.A. mtd. Engineers – 384

S.A. pioneers – 944

S.A.M.C. Union – 2 206

S.A.M.C.C. – 898

Camp. Com.Staff.Potch. – 450

S.A. Sharp Shooters – 24

S.A. Irish – 923

Natal Light Horse – 1 300

2nd Transvaal Scottish – 780

5th Infantry – 1 270

1st Batt. 7th Infantry – 990

Stokes Mortar Battery – 94

Camp.Com Staff Roberts Heights – 661

Div. Sig. Company - 1 458

Garrison M.P. – 172

11th Infantry – 1 430

20th Mtd Rifles – 820

10th Inf Wits Rifles – 1 227

12th Mtd Rifles – 440

5th Mtd Rifles – 560

1st SAI Brigade – 23 798

1st S.A.R. – 324

S.A.M.C.E.A. – 3 206

Base Depot, Durban – 350

Gen. Depot, Wynberg – 114

Native Labour Corps – 327

1st S.A.I. Details – 1 016

Nairobi Howitzers – 49

2nd S.A.R. – 712

Indian bearer Coy. – 660

Recruiting Staff – 80

Record Staff Simonstown – 4

Record Staff Rbts Heights – 13

S.A. Pay Corps – 551

Record Staff Pietermbg – 1

C.C. Staff – 5

Rest Camp Durban – 14

Rest Camp Johannesburg – 9

C.C. Staff Kimberly – 68

S.A.M.C. O/S – 484

Gen Depot Durban – 157

2nd batt 1st Inf D.L.I. – 703

1st Tvl Scottish – 1 090

2nd and 3rd S.A.I. Bgde – 16 127

1st batt 1st Inf – 704

2nd batt Kimberly Regiment 1 000

Hartigans Horse – 4700

12th Inf Pretoria Regt 1 442

2nd Mtd Rifles Ntl Carb – 640

1st Mtd Rifles Natal Carbineers – 728

Cape Corps – 7 473

4th Mtd Rifles – 870

4th Infantry – 1 228

3rd Mtd. Rifles – 601

5th Mtd Rifles 1st ILH – 882

8th Mtd Rifles – 840

3rd Infantry – 778

2nd Infantry – 914

Cape Corps 2nd – 7 473

In Progress (so far)

9th Infantry C.P.R. – 710

4th Dismounted Rifles – 550

11th Mounted Rifles – 400

18th Mounted Rifles – 380

Lists for 1914-15 stars....

Position as at 3.1.1921 115 530 names passed on Rolls. Units dealt with and total of names dealt with during January 1921

10th Infantry – 877

11th Infantry – 70

8th Mounted Rifles – 820

20th Mounted Rifles 280

3rd Infantry – 778

5th M.R. 1st Imperial Light Horse – 882

5th M.R. 2nd Imperial Light Horse – 560

12th M.R. – 440

9th infantry – 710

2nd Infantry – 914

4th Dismounted Rifles – 550

18th M.R. 380

11th M.R. 400

Total for Month 7 661

Daily average per clerk 35 names

Position as at 29.1.1921 123191 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the under mentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during 02.1921

18th Mounted Rifles - 486

11th Mounted Rifles - 100

9th Infantry - 1 510

4th D.M.R. - 519

2nd Imperial Light Horse, 5th M.R. - 563

9th and 10th M.R. - 214

Hartigans Horse Supp Roll - 183

Rand Rifles - 1 107

Potch A Commando - 477

Lichtenburg Commando - 748

Potch B Commando – 331

Ermelo A Commando – 233

Wolmaranstad Commando – 180

Marico Commando – 140

Bloemhof Commando – 130

Krugersdorp Commando – 800

Uys Scouts – 43

De La Reys Scouts – 60

Total for month 7 823

Each clerk averages 32 names per day.

Position as at 26.2.1921 121014 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 27.2.1921 and 1.4.1921

Wolmaranstad Commando - 61

Marico Commando - 204

Bloemhof Commando - 200

Krugersdorp Commando - 162

Standerton B Commando - 242

Heidelburg B Commando - 362

Bethel Commando - 284

Heidelberg A Commando - 510

Middleberg B Commando - 250

Standerton A Commando - 470

Middleberg A Commando - 857

Piet Retief Commando - 275

Vryheid Commando - 220

Carolina Commando - 210

Collins Scouts - 90

Lemmers Scouts - 46

Utrecht Commando - 318

Wakkerstroom Commando - 360

Ermelo Commando - 240

Bothas Natal Horse - 581

Swarts Scouts - 50

Groblers Scouts - 40

3rd Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 350

1st Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 368

2nd Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 374

6th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 373

5th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 381

4th Regt. 5th Mtd Brigade - 399

Lydenburg Commando - 438

Rustenburg Commando - 353

Bothas Scouts Left Wing - 104

Bothas Mtd Rifles - 235

Pieters Commando - 338

Helgaardts Scouts - 30

Waterburg Commando - 263

Enslins Horse - 130

Hunts Scouts - 10

1st Rhod Regt - 240

Total for Month 10 418

Position as at 1.4.1921 131432 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 1.4.1921 and 30.4.1921

Helgaards Scouts - 31

Hunts Scouts - 60

6th Infantry - 882

5th D.M.R. - 440

10th D.M.R. & 13th M.D. - 610

17th M.R. - 627

6th D.M.R. - 722

14th D.M.R. - 550

Celliers Scouts - 100

Durban Garrison Art. - 300

9th D.M.R. - 907

1st D.M.R. - 654

S.A.M.C. Officers - 358

7th Citizen Battery - 160

Cape Fort Engs. - 193

Enslins Horse - 491

1st Rhod Regt - 349

8th Citizen Battery - 170

Cape Garrison Arty - 770

Mt Bbde Field Amb. - 360

12th Citizen Battery - 240

Heavy Art - 220

6th Citizen batt (European) - 113

6th Citizen Batt (Native) - 68

Britstown Commando - 273

Victoria West Commando - 290

Total for Month 9 938

Position as at 30.4.1921 141370 names passed on rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the rolls during period 1.5.1921 and 25.5.1921

Mtd. Bgde Field Abulance - 508

Cape Garrison Artillery - 20

Machine Gun Detachment - 550

Heavy Artillery - 720

Victoria West Commando - 8

Carnarvon Commando - 352

S.A.M.N.S. - 190

Clan William Commando 450

S.A.M.C. - 1085

Fraserburg Commando - 336

Prieska Commando - 240

Kimberly Commando - 320

Cullinans Horse - 557

Sutherland Commando - 250

Graaff Reinet Commando - 490

Kalahari Horse - 710

Calvinia Kenhardt Commando - 794

Hanover Colesburg Commando - 320

Hay Commando - 230

Barkley West Commando - 910

De Aar Commando - 80

8th and 13th D.M.R. - 650

S.A. Pay Corps - 380

Cradock Commando - 380

Hopetown Commando - 130

Total for Month 10 660

Stars engraved to date 30 318

Stars despatched to date 28 494

Position as at 28.06.1921, 152030 names passed on Rolls. The following units have been dealt with and the undermentioned number of names have been passed on to the Rolls during the period 29.5.1921 to 1.6.1921

Kalahari Horse - 430

De Aar Commando - 61

Pay Corps - 80

Hopetown Commando - 144

Midland Scouts - 50

Parkinsons Horse - 66

Mafeking Commando - 139

S.A.E.C. - 1914

Vryburg Commando - 510

2nd Regiment S.A.M.R. 710

1st Regiment S.A.M.R. 905

Philipstown Commando - 231

Gordonia Commando - 151

Van Rhysdorp Commando - 740

3rd Regiment S.A.M.R. - 570

NAmaqualand Commando - 409

4th Regiment S.A.M.R.- 678

5th Regiment S.A.M.R. - 762

Nieuwoudsville Commando - 204

Herbert Commando - 359

Art. Training Depot - 990

S.A. Vet Corps - 490

S.A.A.C. - 166

S.A. Ord. Corps - 910

S.A.M.R. F.A.B. - 660

C.O.C.s Bodyguard - 110

Kakamas Commando - 48

Special Intelligence - 68

Cape Cyclist Corps - 60

1st, 2nd & 3rd Ind. Mtd.R. - 80

S.A.S.C. - 440

8th Cit Batt Natives - 100

B.S.A.P. - 54

S.A.M.R. Med Section - 60

S.A.M.R. Natives - 485

Depots (Base and Gen) - 280

Staffs (Rank and File) - 180

Total for month - 14294

Stars engraved to date - 38 175

Stars despatched to date - 25 020

The Engravers

1 Chief Supervisor

J. Storey

10 Supervisors

F. Sutherland

F. Mackintosh

J.S. Anderson

H. Reeves

H.H. Dolphin

N.E. Coker

Van E. Noome

S.G.N. Webber

R.E. Horwood

36 Assistants

J.A. Russouw

J. Smith (Left employ)

H.A.T.v.d.Poel

J.J. Pienaar

E. Gardener

C.W. Apsey

O. Schunke

R.L. Jubber

A.E.J. Prince

E. van Broembson

H.L. Hurray

J. Murray

J.S. Pretorius

E. Donovan

L.A. Mahon

Dexter ?

H. Elstab

H. Booth

J.S.T. Wates

S. Bloom

J.T. Weir

G.T. Hendry

P.J. von Os

C.O. Oxenholme

J. Keith

W.S. Forbes

W.H. Baker

R.C. de Villiers

D.J. van Enter

M. Russouw

V. Shearsmith

C.F. Margetson

Stampers

L.H. Brink

W.D. Mattews

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Thanks for this Chris; puts some things in perspective. I have a Cape Garrison Arty BWM - interesting to see the low numbers for this unit. Some of those other arty units would be darn near impossible it would seem - ie Nairobi Howitzers.

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Thanks for this Chris; puts some things in perspective. I have a Cape Garrison Arty BWM - interesting to see the low numbers for this unit. Some of those other arty units would be darn near impossible it would seem - ie Nairobi Howitzers.

Hi,

It is possible/probable that these are not complete, they are transcribed from a file in the archives in Pretoria.

Best

Chris

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Understood; representative sample. While not exact totals, it seems logical that the proportions are close. SAFA and SAHA should be large numbers and the territorial units much smaller.

Heck, I'm just happy for the unit names - regardless of numbers. :catjava:

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Hi

Quite suprised to see 898 to the SAMCC ( South african Motor Cycle Corps) Thought tye unit was quite small

Cheers

Perce

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Having these listings is valuable information to both historians and medal collectors. Thankyou Chris for taking the time to reasearch - and indeed type it all out. The M/cycle corps served in East Africa - the bicycles proved inadequate and they imported some 400 B.S.A's from England.

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Having these listings is valuable information to both historians and medal collectors. Thankyou Chris for taking the time to reasearch - and indeed type it all out. The M/cycle corps served in East Africa - the bicycles proved inadequate and they imported some 400 B.S.A's from England.

Hi

I have a pair to the SAMCC- one of the first British/Commonwealth I got

Pte J F Hekma CM855

Cheers

Perce

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Hi Chris

Thanks for these research inputs. Valuable stuff indeed.

If you come across South African recipients of the 1914 Star during your research please forward their names to me. According to what I could dig up so far only seven South Africans received this medal. I have traced five of the seven, with a six name yet to be confirmed. I posted it as a topic bout two years ago on this forum.

:beer:

Norman

Edited by NPGilbert

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Thanks Chris!:cheers: Just for a fun I typed in my Shuterlnd commando VM details on Google and found this! Like I can see now, only around 250 VMs for that unit!

My medal naming BURG. P.J. SENEKAL SUTHERLAND KDO.

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Thanks Chris!:cheers: Just for a fun I typed in my Shuterlnd commando VM details on Google and found this! Like I can see now, only around 250 VMs for that unit!

My medal naming BURG. P.J. SENEKAL SUTHERLAND KDO.

Chris thanks, 660 Indian bearer corps. Makes my pair look more of a bargain than I thought, number of intact pairs must be relatively small.

Paul

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In my limited experience, the 1914/15 Star issued to South Africans for service in German South West Africa was issued first and is often found as a singleton. The War and Victory Medals were issued later, sometimes to accompany a 14/15 Star, but often as the only entitlement for service in German East Africa and/or Europe. <BR><BR>I have been told that during the silver price boom many War Medals ended up in the melting pot and are thus missing from pairs and trios. <BR><BR>Brett

Edited by Brett Hendey

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Dear Members

apologies for hijacking Chris' superb research thread but I have recently acquired my first S.A. 1914-15 Star trio to:

Pte A W Miles 5th Mounted Rifles on the star Cpl. SASC on the pair, he then must have returned to the UK as his final medals are a GV police special constable LSGC and a ww2 Defence medal.

I have established from the Special Constable medal his name is Archie W Miles would anybody be able to have a stab at the value of this group please?

Are ILH medals a desirable unit to South African collectors?

What is the best way of trying to obtain service papers?

Many thanks and best regards.

Paul

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Paul - welcome to GMIC. Chris' listing of numbers for SA units is important and should be kept visible. I will

discuss this with Brian and I think will have it 'pinned'.

The Star with this unit is for the German South West Africa campaign in 1916. I can't remember , off hand , who was in

the 5th Mounted - will check and let you know. The SASC (South African Service Corps) was probably for East Africa,

where we were heavily involved. With regard to research there are several good researchers we can suppy you with

contact details - please let us know ?

From the details of the Defence medal and the Special Constabulary - they are probably for War Service in the UK.

ILH stands for Imperial Light Horse. They are a very desireable unit and were formed for the Boer War. They still exist

as a Citizen unit and have won 4 VC's over the years. Mervyn

ps. 5th Mounted was Imperial Light Horse.

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Hi

Quite suprised to see 898 to the SAMCC ( South african Motor Cycle Corps) Thought tye unit was quite small

Cheers

Perce

Guys

The turn over of troops due to sickness in the GEA Campaign led to a fairly large input of reserves joining the unit from the Union. Still a great unit, they were NOT despatch riders but were actually a mounted fighting regiment (albeit on motorcycles). I am busy with a booklet on these chaps, should be interesting read when finished.

Regards

Brian

Edited by brian conyngham

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Hi Brian

Are you going to publish the booklet on general release when its finished?

Cheers

Perce

Edited by perce

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Hi Brian

Are you going to publish the booklet on general release when its finished?

Cheers

Perce

Perce

Looking into a few options, it all depends on the number of pages and photo's at the moment. Busy with another project so unfortunately this one is a little delayed. Looking for some original info to add, so far managed to find 2 unpublished pictures, a personal diary and the OC's message book, besides the info from the archives.

Will keep you posted.

Brian

Brian

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Gentlemen

whilst on the subject of South African Medals, I acquired a bundle of BWMs recently amongst which was one issued to Sapper W.E.Cooke SAEC, which I take to refer to South African Engineer Corps. I cannot find his MIC on the TNA Website, nor any service papers. My question is, what theatre of war is this recipient likely to have served in, and was this a common or a scarce unit. Basically, I know very little about this unit and would like to discover more, and even better, anything about the recipient. Cheers Richard

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Richard

The SAEC was represented in all the theatres in which South African troops were involved. They were:

German South West Africa, German East Africa, Egypt & Palestine, and France/Flanders.

While all would have received the War Medal together with the Victory Medal, those who served in GSWA were awarded the 1914/15 Star as well. Single War Medals were also issued to service personnel who did not see active service.

There will be a service record for your man in the military archives in Pretoria, but you will need a local researcher to copy it. These records vary considerably in size and detail, so can be disappointing.

Regards

Brett

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Hi,

waht is the TNA Website?

best

Chris

TNA Website is "The National Archives" where most surviving records for the British Armed Forces are kept - possibly only about 10% of the whole are now digitized although many records were lost to enemy action during the Blitz.

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Richard

The SAEC was represented in all the theatres in which South African troops were involved. They were:

German South West Africa, German East Africa, Egypt & Palestine, and France/Flanders.

While all would have received the War Medal together with the Victory Medal, those who served in GSWA were awarded the 1914/15 Star as well. Single War Medals were also issued to service personnel who did not see active service.

There will be a service record for your man in the military archives in Pretoria, but you will need a local researcher to copy it. These records vary considerably in size and detail, so can be disappointing.

Regards

Brett

Many thanks indeed Brett for your help - any suggestions as to a way forward on this one - any contacts you can suggest in Pretoria? Living in UK I know nobody over there. Best wishes, Richard

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Richard

The person I have used is Audrey Portman (rhino.research@icon.co.za). If I can be of any other assistance, please do not hesitate to PM me.

Regards

Brett

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M

Richard

The person I have used is Audrey Portman (rhino.research@icon.co.za). If I can be of any other assistance, please do not hesitate to PM me.

Regards

Brett

Many thanks Brett - I shall follow that one up. Have a nice day. Richard

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