Luftwaffe Unqualified Air Gunner’s/ Flight Engineer’s Badge

[FrontlineAntiques]

Hi all

Today i recieved a great mixed group of items (see here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=46835&st=0 )

This badge was in the group and I am pretty sure that we have an original Unqualified Air Gunner’s/ Flight Engineer’s Badge (Fliegerschutzenabzeichen mit Schwarzem Kranz).

It is marked to the rear W Deumer Ludenscheid

Now, it has at some point in its life undergone a contemporary repair but it "feels" like a right one to me.

Your opinions are welcomed

All the best

Dan

Edited July 6, 2011 by FrontlineAntiques

[J Temple-West]

Hi Dan

Seeing that this late zinc badge has lost all of its finish, it’s impossible to tell if this was ever the unqualified version. I would describe is as....A mid-war, heavily repaired Radio Operator/Air Gunner badge with lightning bolts removed, as per orders, turning it into the Air Gunner/Flight Engineer’s Badge.

[FrontlineAntiques]

Hi John

Thanks for your reply.

The reason for thinking that it is a Unqualified Air Gunner’s badge is that the rear of the eagle still has the remnants of silvering, bubbling up over the zinc.

On the feet, I cannot see any trace of where the lightning bolts would have been removed. Have you got any photos of xamples that have been removed for comparison?

Cheers

Dan

[J Temple-West]

I think you’ll find that the silver you’re seeing on the bubbling is due to oxidation rather than finish.

Regarding the removal of the lightning bolts....

I’ve done a quick timeline comparison of the badges produced by W. Deumer. Most parts for Luftwaffe badges were supplied to Deumer by C E Juncker so don’t be confused with the badges shown.

From left to right:

Early nickel silver RO/AG – Zinc (early/mid war) RO/AG – Zinc (mid/late war) factory produced AG/FE.

The badge you have is of the ‘zinc (early/mid war) RO/AG’ type and would have originally had bolts having been produced before the ’mid/late war’ or ‘unqualified’ badge were introduced.

[FrontlineAntiques]

The badge you have is of the ‘zinc (early/mid war) RO/AG’ type and would have originally had bolts having been produced before the ’mid/late war’ or ‘unqualified’ badge were introduced.

As they say, a picture is definately worth a thousand words. I absolutely agree with you John, this is the Zinc (early/mid war) RO/AG with bolts removed.

Thanks

Dan

[Karsten S]

Hi Dan

Time-line of Deumer.

A. Is the first of Deumers ROAG´s and is a fully Juncker Design of Eagle and wreath. No Doubt that Juncker was involved in this. If they where made by Juncker, is not really known for sure, but it seems very likely that Juncker produced the eagles and wreaths for Deumer, but Deumer assembled them, and applied the set-up on the reverse is quite clear.

There is also some uncertainty about date, but it should be approx. 1938/39-1940

B. A Deumer produced ROAG in Nickel-Silver. Different eagle and wreath from Juncker. Easiest way to tell them apart with the naked eye is properly the air-hole in the beak, which the Juncker designed eagle does not have.

produced 1940- 1941/42.

C. Same design as B, but in zinc. air-hole in the beak is removed and the area between the upper swastika and the bolts is filled out.

Produced 1941/42-1945.

D. Airgunner designed by Deumer and also in zinc.

Produced 1942/43-1945.

E. Same design as D, but with black wreath and silver eagle + Swastika.

Produced 1944-1945.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Karsten S

[FrontlineAntiques]

Thanks for the great information Karsten! They really are a great series of awards

Dan

[PeterL]

Very nice summary Karsten, thank you.

Any chance you might put this in the GCA database?

Peter

Edited December 19, 2010 by PeterL

[Karsten S]

Hi Guys,

Thank you.

Sure, I will add it to the GCA LW forum as well.

KR

Karsten

[J Temple-West]

D. Airgunner designed by Deumer and also in zinc.

Produced 1942/43-1945.

E. Same design as D, but with black wreath and silver eagle + Swastika.

Produced 1944-1945.

Sorry Karsten but I must disagree. Your examples “D” & “E” are both Juncker supplied, Factory revised (bolts removed or a correction to the die) badges from from a CE Juncker designed 4th pattern RO/AG normally found in zinc, although transitional ‘buntmetal’ versions are found, and mostly stamped with the “SW 68” maker mark.

The SW 68 marked, 4th pattern RO/AG by Juncker.

[J Temple-West]

And the Same revised AG/FE badge by Juncker...also SW 68 marked.

Unless, of course, you have evidence that Deumer in fact supplied C. E Juncker with the parts/dies. Now that would be interesting! :cheers:

[Karsten S]

Hi John

I do not have any info that Juncker is the deliver of parts to Deumer for their Airgunner, do you? That would be new info for me in that case.

A part for this, I have to kindly disagree with your assumptions.

First of all, the J4 ROAG and the Juncker airgunner do share the same wreath, but the eagles are different, so a "bolts removed or a correction to the die" of the eagle as you state is IMO out of the question. I have pointed out a few of the differences ( see attached images)

The Eagle on the Juncker Airgunner was made from it´s own die.

If you compare the Juncker Airgunner with the Deumer Airgunner, Neither the eagle nor the wreaths are identical as you can see on the images.

This does not exclude Juncker from being the maker of the Deumer dies, but I have to this date not see anything evidence that should suggest this?

Karsten

[Karsten S]

The Juncker Airgunner

Arrows pointing out some of the many difference on eagle and wreath from the Deumer AG

Edited December 21, 2010 by Karsten S

[Karsten S]

Deumer Airgunner