Mervyn Mitton Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Amongst the collection I recently purchased was this M1898 sawback bayonet for the Mauser. There was also a plain back version of the same size. This one is dated 1899 on the spine - they were mostly issued to Machine Gunners and the Pioneers. The extra length of the blade making it even more useful for cutting down trees and shrubs to give a clear field of fire. They seem to be quite rare and very collectable - Chris ? I understand that it was known as the Mauser LONG GEWHER 98 Sawback. Please - as always, we post these items for the interest of members. Some of you will be experts on particular pieces - so, do feel free to post any info. and additional pictures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 With-in scabbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 This is probably the Regiment - perhaps someone can help to work out the details ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Maker's Stamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Thats very nice indeed! I dont have one of those yet. Will PM you ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted June 13, 2011 Author Share Posted June 13, 2011 Earlier German bayonets tend to have the Royal Crown and cypher on the spine - and underneath this the date of manufacture. Shown here as '99' - which represented 1899. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I am a bit lost as to which unit... I tend to think it was artillery? It cannot be Füsilier Regiment (as far as I know...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I am a bit lost as to which unit... I tend to think it was artillery? It cannot be Füsilier Regiment (as far as I know...) Very nice S98aA S! I agree with Chris, I do not believe that there ever was a German 2nd Füsilier Regiment. Seeing as how this is a pre-1909 bayonet and could have been marked prior to the 1909 regulations, if I had to guess as to its meaning, I would lean towards it being for the 2nd Garde-Feldartillerie-Regiment. At least that is the one that makes the most sense to me. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Thanks to Mervyn, this piece is now mine.... I spent today researching and am rather excited indeed.............. Does anyone see a colonial connection here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Can anyone see light at the end of the tunnel? http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/forum/21-germany-imperial-uniforms-%26-insignia/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mervyn Mitton Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 Chris - most of the German bayonets in South Africa were souvenirs from either South West Africa or, East Africa. The sawbacks were invariably part of an N.C.O.'s equipment - although I can't be sure on this long one. Did the Regt. work out to be the one our member suggested ? Mervyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Dale Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Great bayonet. As noted already, it appears to be an S98aAS for the Mauser 98 rifle. My guess would be the Foot Artillery, specifically 1. Batterie, Fußartillerie-Regt. von Hindersin (1. Pommersches) Nr.2. If it were Guard artillery I would expect to see a "G" in there, if it were Field Artillery I wouldn't expect it to be this bayonet type as this is specifically for the rifle and didn't field artillery have carbines? I might be wrong here. The original Mauser 98 carbines had no bayonet mounting, the later AZ carbine was usually issued with a shorter bayonet. This early date 1899 also rules out the AZ carbine. Couple of small points on what's been said already, Merv said "they were mostly issued to Machine Gunners and the Pioneers"... I thought Pioneers usually used the heavier Pionier-Faschinenmesser bayonets, and Machine Gunners the short kS98 bayonet (after its introduction). And "souvenirs from either South West Africa or, East Africa. The sawbacks were invariably part of an N.C.O.'s equipment ". All bayonets issued in DSWA after 1904/05 and those later issued in DOA were kS98 bayonets which all had the sawback. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 And "souvenirs from either South West Africa or, East Africa. The sawbacks were invariably part of an N.C.O.'s equipment ". All bayonets issued in DSWA after 1904/05 and those later issued in DOA were kS98 bayonets which all had the sawback. Cheers Chris Hi, Are you forgetting the "Feld Regiment" one on your site ? :-) I was puzzling as to why the stamp was on the sheath, and not on the crossguard as well. The "F" and "R" stamps used by the 1st company are a tad larger than those used by the Ersatz Company, and would actually have ben too large to fit on the cross guard. " The markings "2.F.R.E.4.179." on the hilt show this bayonet to have been issued to the 2.Feld-Regiment, 4. Ersatz-Kompagnie of the Schutztruppe of South West Africa, weapon number 179. The Schutztruppe were only temporarily formed into regimental units during the Herero Rebellion. It is the only known example of a South West African Schutztruppe bayonet with individual unit markings. The S98 bayonet was not commonly issued in South West Africa, only one has been noted in a modern collection with the usual Schutztruppe "KS" markings. It is notable that this one was for an Ersatz unit rather than a frontline formation. From records (in "Unter dem Kreuz des Südens" by S Schepp) it is known that another non-frontline unit, the Landespolizei, also had a small number of S98 bayonets in stock. This bayonet was made at Erfurt in 1900 (marked "W00") and has a sawback blade. Like all S98aA bayonets it has a one piece wooden grip and a leather scabbard." best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Dale Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 "Are you forgetting the "Feld Regiment" one on your site ? :-)" Haha, yes indeed I am! What I should have said is that the vast majority of bayonets for the DSWA Schutztruppe at this time were kS98, which all had the sawback... there are always odd exceptions like that one. "I was puzzling as to why the stamp was on the sheath, and not on the crossguard as well." I think they were supposed to be on both. Some are crossguard only, some are sheath only, some have both, some have none. It seems that unit markings were done locally within units so variations occur. Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 According to Jeff Noll's book on weapons markings, F.R. is for Fusilier Regiment. I don't think artillery troops carried this bayonet, i.e., the S98aAS. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Dale Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Good thinking, I reckon you're right Chip. But if it is from a Fusilier Regt the numbers don't add up. Unless there's a very faint "12" missing before the first "1" for Füsilier-Regt. Kaiser Franz Josef von Österreich, König von Ungarn (4.Württembergisches) Nr.122? Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 According to Jeff Noll's book on weapons markings, F.R. is for Fusilier Regiment. I don't think artillery troops carried this bayonet, i.e., the S98aAS. Chip Hi, I think later when stamping became F.R. was standard for Füsilier, but there was no 2nd Füsilir regiment. Going by Chris' Schutztruppe Bayonets, with one to the 2nd Feld Regt, the fact that this comes from South Africa.. I think it is a safe bet that it was locally stamped to the Feld Regiment. I dont think the KS98s made an appearance in DSWA until 1905-07 era, This is a sure fire hit for the Herero war. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Good thinking, I reckon you're right Chip. But if it is from a Fusilier Regt the numbers don't add up. Unless there's a very faint "12" missing before the first "1" for Füsilier-Regt. Kaiser Franz Josef von Österreich, König von Ungarn (4.Württembergisches) Nr.122? Cheers Chris Nope, stampings are as clear as a bell, a definate "2" I think this is a mystery that would have been impossible to solve without the origin of the bayonet, the pre KS98 period, the Herero war and the specially raised 2. Feld Regt. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chip Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I'm not making any judgements, just offering some information. This field of study can be a confusing one. Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I'm not making any judgements, just offering some information. This field of study can be a confusing one. Chip Hi, no problemo, this needs all thoughts in the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Dale Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I consulted a specialist bayonet collector on this mystery and he said- "Interesting marking that is one of those puzzles that does not fit the official regs Will have to look in a bit more detail but as you know F can be fusilier, fuhrpark, fuss, feldhaubitz, festungs or apparently unofficially just feld. Not foot artillery as they never got the S98 so my money tends towards Feld Regiment as the chap says. 1st and 2nd Feld Reg involved not just Ersatz Kompagnie so its the only thing that fits on first reaction. Nice one........" So my foot artillery guess was wrong, as Chip spotted earlier, and he's agreeing with your idea Chris... Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaeger7 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Another possibility: 2. Flieger-Bataillon, Rekrutendepot, 1 Kompagnie, No 105 ?? Regards jaeger7-de Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Hi Chris, Thanks for enquiring. The vaaast majority of out of the woodwork WW1 German bayonets forund in South Africa are from GSWA and GEA, so I am pretty convinced this is the case here. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 "Haha, yes indeed I am! What I should have said is that the vast majority of bayonets for the DSWA Schutztruppe at this time were kS98, which all had the sawback... there are always odd exceptions like that one." Ta-daaaaaaaaa :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Dale Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Hi Chris, Nice photo, but I think that's a Marine Infantry soldier in DSWA not Schutztruppe. Yes, more exceptions to rules! Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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