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Hi Rob,

Thanks for that clarification; yes, I see on your examples what you are referring to. I will need to take my one 4th Div piece out and examine it closer when I have time and see if there are any indications of hubs that might have broken off the St. Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne bars, or if they just never had any.

Will be interesting to see, as this is the only example where I have two bars that are missing the hubs and they are combined with that official "reissue" DS bar (with pins).

Thanks again!

Tim

Edited by Tim B

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Hey Johnny!

On the claim of the two pieces being attributed to the US 4th Div; I am only going off the matrix's listed by Laslo and Nixon. The 4th Division is the only one listed to have this exact set-up. Sure, there could/would be those members from other outfits that might have these and were absent from other campaigns due to wounds, death, etc.

Without ironclad provenances or documented groups, it will be impossible to say for sure 100% at this point. I just try to collect a "representative" piece from each line of the matrix and use those as a guide what to look for.

I don't dispute what Rob is saying on reproduction bars as we see a wide variety of these on the market however, I questioned whether we could say for sure a bar is reproduction solely due to the semi-circles being filled in. As you stated, these are cast and sometimes the dies/molds get dirty and if you have ever been involved in casting, you know there are often imperfections that are common using this technique. Just between my different examples, I can see slight differences in quality or level of details between same-type bars.

Cheers!

Tim

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Hi Rob,

Thanks for that clarification; yes, I see on your examples what you are referring to. I will need to take my one 4th Div piece out and examine it closer when I have time and see if there are any indications of hubs that might have broken off the St. Mihiel and Meuse-Argonne bars, or if they just never had any.

Will be interesting to see, as this is the only example where I have two bars that are missing the hubs and they are combined with that official "reissue" DS bar (with pins).

Thanks again!

Tim

Hello Tim,

The hubs that the U.S mint provided to: Art Metal Works, Jos Mayer, and S.G. Adams were subsequently used to produce their dies which where then used to press the battle and service clasps. I wouldn't expect to see too much variation in these official clasps although there have been minor variations observed in lettering, spacing etc...

A close look at some official bars will see that they have been simply produced without the usually seen spacers, although there have been examples seen where the spacers were actually cut off leaving evidence of the modification. I have also seen an official DEFENSIVE SECTOR bar with spacers, where it was usually produced without, so I don't think we should be altogether surprised when minor variations are seen.

Back to the 2 middle clasps. A close look at them shows that the end semi-circles are completely flat even under a glass, so it certainly looks like a design feature and not as a result of a poor moulding or die flaw.

Regards,

Rob

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Hey Johnny!

On the claim of the two pieces being attributed to the US 4th Div; I am only going off the matrix's listed by Laslo and Nixon. The 4th Division is the only one listed to have this exact set-up. Sure, there could/would be those members from other outfits that might have these and were absent from other campaigns due to wounds, death, etc.

Without ironclad provenances or documented groups, it will be impossible to say for sure 100% at this point. I just try to collect a "representative" piece from each line of the matrix and use those as a guide what to look for.

I don't dispute what Rob is saying on reproduction bars as we see a wide variety of these on the market however, I questioned whether we could say for sure a bar is reproduction solely due to the semi-circles being filled in. As you stated, these are cast and sometimes the dies/molds get dirty and if you have ever been involved in casting, you know there are often imperfections that are common using this technique. Just between my different examples, I can see slight differences in quality or level of details between same-type bars.

Cheers!

Tim

Rob and Tim you both have added to my knowledge of the victory medal at the point where Laslo book left off. But, Tim let me add, Laslo and Nixon matrix's is only a good start for the new collectors, as there was more then just infantry in that war. The trouble with posting a matrix is people assume that is the final word so they put a value on all their medals as a rare item from a famed division. Laslo saw this error and that is why in his second publication he did not put one in. Tim you ask for ironclad provenances or documented groups, so I hope these photocopy pages from a book will work for you. see: AISNE-MARNE, ST. MIHIEL, MEUSE-AGRONNE and DEFENSIVE SECTOR.

As for the two repro bars Rob mentions in his postings. A coin is a good example of a design, it stays the same through the years until it is decided by those in power to be changed. It does not jump all over the place with its design as on some of the clasp we see. Upside down stars, large and smaller stars, letters types, semi circles, spacers on some, missing on others, it just does not work that way. It is laughable to think that government would just threw together a victory medal with a broad mix of clasp 90% of the time with these clasps out of order in how they were awarded. Yes, replacement bars were needed at some point, but, I consider as the only real replacement clasp the one with the pins on the back of the clasp. The main reasoning I follow is: Are we to believe, the clasps with the upside stars, missing spacers, ect, was again changed back, to the original design as was done on the pinned clasp? If Laslo and Gleim found anything on these unknown Army style clasp they would have put them front and center their books and not as just a mear mention.

Regards, JM

Edited by johnnymac

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John,

I'm not sure you're reading my comments completely or understanding what I am saying here. :unsure:

First, I understand the matrix's listed by Nixon, Laslo, etc. are not 100% complete and show only the major combat units that were issued these clasps as a "complete set-up". In that sole regard, these matrix, which were based on official Army directives, are still the best single references to use. The AEF was large and considering the varying timelines and services that had to generate, correct & add to these entitlements post-war, it would take much more than any matrix to identify ALL the possible combinations.

Then you have to account for those that might have missed a specific campaign due to wounds or other circumstances. Add to that, the fact that only about half of those people authorized the medals, ever bothered to receive them and then, who knows, there might be those that still had entitlements to something else from the norm.

So, as stated previously>>> I use the matrix as a GUIDE to get a representative example of each shown. How I collect these is my business.

Second, when I am discussing "iron-clad provenance" to something, I am not referring to published works, matrix's, or official general orders. I am simply stating that to know 100% where a specific item (medal/badge/hat pin, whatever) comes from, you have to have the specific history behind "it", not simply a facsimile or another example of it. You posted some medals earlier trying to justify they were issued to Marine units based on the attachments, but without getting these directly from the vet, family, or in a well-documented group that you can be assured is complete to each piece, then really, all you have is a story or speculation. Now, the story may be true and it may not.

I am not a "new" collector my any means and have seen quite a few stories over the years purporting collections coming out of estates, vet's families, etc., where the combination of items were impossible or simply the item was a fake altogether. I'm sure a lot of these guys collected militaria as well and picked items up as souvenirs over the years. Eventually, somewhere the item becomes "authentic" to those that have it or got it from the reliable source.

I have also seen groups split-up, put back together with items missing or added and now, really, all you have is a group of items that are not 100%. Anyway...

Third, I do understand government contracts as I have been involved with several over the years. If you go back and read my past comments concerning the clasps, it merely addressed the semi-circles being filled in. I do not discuss the stars, lettering, hyphens, etc. I am not sure what you are missing or reading too much into here, but I think Rob understood my comments for what they were.

Bottom line: people collect for various reasons and I will continue to collect for the reasons that make ME happy.

Enjoy your time here. :cheers:

R,

Tim

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John,

I'm not sure you're reading my comments completely or understanding what I am saying here. unsure.gif

First, I understand the matrix's listed by Nixon, Laslo, etc. are not 100% complete and show only the major combat units that were issued these clasps as a "complete set-up". In that sole regard, these matrix, which were based on official Army directives, are still the best single references to use. The AEF was large and considering the varying timelines and services that had to generate, correct & add to these entitlements post-war, it would take much more than any matrix to identify ALL the possible combinations.

Then you have to account for those that might have missed a specific campaign due to wounds or other circumstances. Add to that, the fact that only about half of those people authorized the medals, ever bothered to receive them and then, who knows, there might be those that still had entitlements to something else from the norm.

So, as stated previously>>> I use the matrix as a GUIDE to get a representative example of each shown. How I collect these is my business.

Second, when I am discussing "iron-clad provenance" to something, I am not referring to published works, matrix's, or official general orders. I am simply stating that to know 100% where a specific item (medal/badge/hat pin, whatever) comes from, you have to have the specific history behind "it", not simply a facsimile or another example of it. You posted some medals earlier trying to justify they were issued to Marine units based on the attachments, but without getting these directly from the vet, family, or in a well-documented group that you can be assured is complete to each piece, then really, all you have is a story or speculation. Now, the story may be true and it may not.

I am not a "new" collector my any means and have seen quite a few stories over the years purporting collections coming out of estates, vet's families, etc., where the combination of items were impossible or simply the item was a fake altogether. I'm sure a lot of these guys collected militaria as well and picked items up as souvenirs over the years. Eventually, somewhere the item becomes "authentic" to those that have it or got it from the reliable source.

I have also seen groups split-up, put back together with items missing or added and now, really, all you have is a group of items that are not 100%. Anyway...

Third, I do understand government contracts as I have been involved with several over the years. If you go back and read my past comments concerning the clasps, it merely addressed the semi-circles being filled in. I do not discuss the stars, lettering, hyphens, etc. I am not sure what you are missing or reading too much into here, but I think Rob understood my comments for what they were.

Bottom line: people collect for various reasons and I will continue to collect for the reasons that make ME happy.

Enjoy your time here. cheers.gif

R,

Tim

Tim

I am sorry if you think that my intent was to fully down grade you too anything other than a very serious and very knowledgeable collector, it was not my intent.

As for the Marine medal issue, my intent was to add something fresh and maybe something new, nothing more. The two articles I posted were from two different newspapers listing two Marines which “they” listed alone with their award. I thought it might have at less some interest but seems it was taken as me promoting a medal. I am 67 years old and the added value to that medal if any, would have been peanuts. I too, collect because I like collecting, just like you. When I pass someone will come in and offer my wife a faction of their value and no matter what paper trail I leave, it will do her no good, and all collectors know or should know that. A true collector, collects because they enjoy what there are collecting. So what was my big gain here on that medal?

Thanks for all your help and time in the past, and I add, live a long and good life,

JM cheers.gif

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Hi Rob,



Real quick, back to the US pieces with those repro bars. Here's a composite photo of ones that I think make your point a bit clearer. You can see the die differences in the lettering, stars and the end hubs are plain. The reverse look like the originals.

These are on a medal that resembles the 1st official style in regards to suspension and the medal does not have Frasier's name on it.
Tim

Edited by IrishGunner

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Hi Rob,

Real quick, back to the US pieces with those repro bars. Here's a composite photo of ones that I think make your point a bit clearer. You can see the die differences in the lettering, stars and the end hubs are plain. The reverse look like the originals.

These are on a medal that resembles the 1st official style in regards to suspension and the medal does not have Frasier's name on it.

Tim

Hello Tim,

Yes you are indeed right. These clasps closely resemble other repro clasp types that have been attributed by Mr Laslo to the firm of Bailey, Banks & Biddle. I am pretty confident that these middle clasps are B,B, & B. What intrigues me more is the identity and manufacturer of the top MONTDIDIER-NOYON clasp.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Hello Tim,

Yes you are indeed right. These clasps closely resemble other repro clasp types that have been attributed by Mr Laslo to the firm of Bailey, Banks & Biddle. I am pretty confident that these middle clasps are B,B, & B. What intrigues me more is the identity and manufacturer of the top MONTDIDIER-NOYON clasp.

Regards,

Rob

To all,

I welcome all feed backs, Sorry I am limited to KB's so quality is not as good as I would have liked.

JM

PS - I am not saying that the Art Medal Works put out these Army style clasps as original issue clasp. But it is possible that they were, the subcontractor of these clasp for an independent person or company.

Edited by johnnymac

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Hello Gentlemen -

Just a quick post to let you know that I am still following this thread, and with great interest at that, and trying hard to remember (or at least remember where to be able to re-read) all this information. I knew that the WWI Victory Medal is a collecting avenue all of its own, but I had NO idea of the number of variations of the medals themselves, never mind the "smorgasbord" of American bars!

I have but one American Victory medal, and I am really taken with it. I think it is a really handsome medal and from what I can garner from this thread it seems to be a "good" one ...

Please keep on posting. It is really a great, and interesting, thread. Thank you all.

Best regards

Thomas

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Hello Gentlemen -

Just a quick post to let you know that I am still following this thread, and with great interest at that, and trying hard to remember (or at least remember where to be able to re-read) all this information. I knew that the WWI Victory Medal is a collecting avenue all of its own, but I had NO idea of the number of variations of the medals themselves, never mind the "smorgasbord" of American bars!

I have but one American Victory medal, and I am really taken with it. I think it is a really handsome medal and from what I can garner from this thread it seems to be a "good" one ...

Please keep on posting. It is really a great, and interesting, thread. Thank you all.

Best regards

Thomas

Thomas

At the top of your medal the ribbon is worn on both ends that is normal as a person had to put pressure on the ribbon to pin it on and take it off. For sure that person prized it, as it is still in great shape.

This list is just some of the units to be issued this medal with these clasps:

4th Division,

52nd Coastal Artillery Corps,

411th Telegraph Battalion, 411th was made up mainly from Pacific Bell personal on the west coast of the USA who enlisted for the war from a (Telephone Co.),

1st Corps Balloon Group,

3rd Corps Balloon Group, 4th Co.,

1st Regiment Gas,

1st Battalion Trench Artillery,

2nd Cavalry.

JM

Edited by johnnymac

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Hello Gentlemen -

I knew that the WWI Victory Medal is a collecting avenue all of its own, but I had NO idea of the number of variations of the medals themselves, never mind the "smorgasbord" of American bars!

I have but one American Victory medal, and I am really taken with it. I think it is a really handsome medal and from what I can garner from this thread it seems to be a "good" one ...

Best regards

Thomas

Hello again Thomas,

It's good to see someone else posting items, apart from the usual suspects! :D

The myriad of possible combinations of battle clasps on the US vic is something that makes it interesting. As has been mentioned here in the past on this thread, a battle clasp matrix is a good starting point, but doesn't cover all the possible variations and so should be used as a guide. It is a good guide nonetheless and we are forever seeing clasp combinations that don't seem to fit the rules.

It is this variety which draws the attention.

Thanks for posting the pic of yours.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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To all,

As an aide for researchers of US vics there has been a recent reprint of one of the major US War Department publications from the 1920s relating to Battle Participation of the AEF in France, Belgium and Italy. As a listing of the specific battles and campaign participation is relatively synonymous with the latter battle clasps to the US vic it is a handy source of information.

This publication is a reprint of the original May 1920 War Department issue, and was produced by the University of Michigan Library. It is available through a large US based online retailer.

Many thanks to forum member 'JM' for bringing this to my attention.

Here is a pic of the cover for reference.

Regards,

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Hi Rob,

You can actually download it for free through Google Books; it's about 129 pages in .pdf format.

Tim

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Hi Rob,

You can actually download it for free through Google Books; it's about 129 pages in .pdf format.

Tim

Hello Tim,

Call me old fashioned but I prefer the 'dead tree' variety. I find it easier if I have to constantly refer to something, to be able to turn around, reach to my references on the bookshelf, and peruse them in a meandering sort of way.

The exception to that rule is my barely recognisable 2nd Edition of Mr Laslo's book. There is only so much emendation that can be done on a paper copy of a book before you turn to keeping the additions in electronic format. biggrin.gif

Rob

Edited by RobW

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Hi Rob!

Oh, no doubt, my book gets used quite a bit as well, though I find myself looking at the Laslo/Nixon matrix's even more. Had thought about printing those out and pasting them into the back of the book.

My point on downloading the information from Google was simply it was free and you can print it out easy enough. It has some blank pages in it, but I figure about 57 pages front & back and you have the information for a lot cheaper and ... can you even find the actual hard copy of it? Not sure how much it will go for.

Tim

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Hi Rob!

Oh, no doubt, my book gets used quite a bit as well, though I find myself looking at the Laslo/Nixon matrix's even more. Had thought about printing those out and pasting them into the back of the book.

My point on downloading the information from Google was simply it was free and you can print it out easy enough. It has some blank pages in it, but I figure about 57 pages front & back and you have the information for a lot cheaper and ... can you even find the actual hard copy of it? Not sure how much it will go for.

Tim

Hey Tim,

I wouldn't even bother trying to find an original 1920 version. Hard copy of the current reprint book - US $20 from Amazon.

Rob

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Hey Tim,

I wouldn't even bother trying to find an original 1920 version. Hard copy of the current reprint book - US $20 from Amazon.

Rob

Hi Rob,

Really? Last time I checked Amazon, they didn't have it listed. $20, would be worth a hardbound book over a printed copy. :cheers:

Tim

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Hello Tim,

Call me old fashioned but I prefer the 'dead tree' variety. I find it easier if I have to constantly refer to something, to be able to turn around, reach to my references on the bookshelf, and peruse them in a meandering sort of way.

The exception to that rule is my barely recognisable 2nd Edition of Mr Laslo's book. There is only so much emendation that can be done on a paper copy of a book before you turn to keeping the additions in electronic format. biggrin.gif

Rob

To All;

Both books are Government printing, both printing dates 1920. Second book by Gen. Pershing: list all units attached to 1st, 2nd 3rd., Army, and their Corps, Divisions, Battalions, Regiments, etc.

Example: these unit not list in book: Battle Participation --------etc.

1st DIVISION

1St Mobile Ordnance Repair Shops (M.O.R.S.), 301st, 378th & 695th Service Parks, 1st Motor Vehicle Shops, 309th Commissary, 319th Clothing, 22nd Salvage, 314th Laundry, 18th & 22nd Bath, 7th Bakery.

2nd DIVISION

2nd Mobile Ordnance Repair Shops (M.O.R.S), 303rd, 363rd & 375th Service Parks, 2nd Motor Vehicle Shops, 1st Commissary, 320th Clothing, 2nd Salvage, 326th Laundry, 17th Bath, 319th Bakery.

It is the mate to Battle Participation, ------------etc. not only does it list ALL the units, it has tons of maps, each battle and more. Sorry this book is not a reprint so keep an eye out.

Forget downloading and printing the book out. Cost of ink is a killer, not mention time or paper! Book is only $19.95 USD.

JM

Edited by johnnymac

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To all,

To close the loop on an earlier entry regarding a reprint of the Battle Participation reference, there is also a reprint of the Final Report by General Pershing.

This publication is a reprint of the original May 1920 War Department issue, and was produced by the University of Michigan Library. It is available through amazon for US $ 20.

Here is a pic of the cover for reference.

Regards,

Rob

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Thanks Rob!

Here is my US ribbon bar with the same ribbon and the Victory medal in first placespeechless.gif . This guy liked his bling bling....

also this bar iw with the maker tag on the back: Made by Geo. W. Studley.

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Question:

Did the US Navy issue a France clasp for WW1 US Victory medal? I noticed an Aviation clasp along with a France clasp on a WW1US Victory medal

and wonder if the France was an authorized clasp.

Thanks

Edited by Bosungus

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Question:

Did the US Navy issue a France clasp for WW1 US Victory medal? I noticed an Aviation clasp along with a France clasp on a WW1US Victory medal

and wonder if the France was an authorized clasp.

Thanks

Here some of my notes I keep, I hope it helps:

This clasp is a Gleim FI type (Unknown Manufacturer) and as of this date there is no information on it being an authorized clasp.

NAVY SERVICE CLASPS

Bureau of Navigation Circular Letter No. 36-20 of 23 April 1920 announced provisions for issuing the Victory Medal, adding that honorable character of service was a precondition for award of the Victory Medal. Recipients were authorized to have engraved on the rim his or her name, rank and the name of the ship or station where he or she served during the war, (There are many examples of the engraving on the face of the medal, which is obviously a misunderstanding of the owner or the engraver of the stated order).

In 1933, the Navy extended the (Army's) Russia and Siberia service clasps to naval personnel for duty in the following timeframe:

RUSSIA: For service on shore in Northern Russia from 12 November 1918 to 31 July 1919. SIBERIA: For service on shore in Siberia from 12 November 1918 to 30 March 1920, both Army style clasps

Seven years later, on 05 October 1940, the Secretary of the Navy authorized the award of the (Army's) FRANCE, ENGLAND and ITALY service clasps to personnel of the Navy and Marine Corps who sailed from the U.S. prior to 11 Nov. 1918 enroute to one of these countries, regardless of their date of arrival in that country -- even if those personnel were returned to the U.S. without disembarking.

The first formal assignment of clasps was contained in General Order No. 528 of 25 April 1920. Curiously, it also made reference to clasps HOSPITAL SHIP and GUNBOAT, devices never authorized or officially struck. By 1953, the Navy and Marine Corps Awards Manual specified clasps for approximately 1,388 ships, 140 of these vessels qualified for two different clasps and two ships qualified for three clasps. Again, a recipient could wear only one earned Navy clasp.

The thousands of Marines and Navy Medical Corps personnel attached to the Army in France earned and were authorized to wear those (Army) clasps authorized by their parent command.

When any person had been commended as the result of the recommendation of the Board of Awards by the Secretary of the Navy for performance of duty during World War I not justifying the award of a Medal of Honor, a Distinguished Service Medal, or a Navy Cross, he or she shall wear a 3/16-inch silver star on the suspension ribbon and ribbon bar for each such citation.

A bronze Maltese cross, 3/16-inch in diameter, was to be placed on the service ribbon of those officers and men of the Marine Corps and Medical Corps, United States Navy, who were attached to the American Expeditionary Forces in France any time between 6 April 1917, and 11 November 1918, and who are not entitled to any battle clasp provided for by General Order No. 83, War Department, 30 June 1919.

JM

Edited by johnnymac

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