JapanX Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 It looks like sash badge central medallion is later replacement. The breast star has interesting additional "attachment device" Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 The ring on the upper ray of the star... No wonder Alexandra failed attaching it:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g1usxs Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Thank you Nick and Mitya for posting the latest pictures of aftab. :jumping: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) No-no-nо, Markus! I'm not a great scholar (you are too kind, thanks) and Mary and George visited India in Nov. 1905 - March 1906 and not in 1904. Her memory failed to remember the year:) I've asked one of my friends to help us and to read day-month on this firnan - but there are none, he says:( Just the year 1323. It is good thing that you have me Mitya It is indeed firman for Queen Mary's Aftab. The translation "We, Muzaffar ad-Din Shāh Kadzhar, Shāhanshāh of all Persia… …to highly respected and highly honored (used the word close to french vénéré) Nəvvab-Princess De Kal (i.e. Princess of Wales - Nəvvab (another variant “Nawab” or “Nabob”) is a prince or prince successor to the throne - this word was used because of her husband ) venerable wife of its Highness … …to show friendship and unity between two governments are giving an award Aftab to bear it on the breast. In Muharram al-haram 1323 (Chinese year of a snake) (i.e. March 1905)” Cheers, Nick Edited March 30, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Thanks, Nick! "Horror-show!" (с) Anthony Burgess:). The only possible improvement could be "His Highness" in "...wife of its Highness..." God bless our friends in Russia and Iran who provided us with this translation of the parts of the document seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The only possible improvement could be "His Highness" in "...wife of its Highness..." Of course Mate :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 The word "Nawab" was used during the Qajar regime for all those of the rank of Royal Highness or above. It had nothing to do with prince successor to the throne or venerable husbands or any such stuff and nonsense. 1323 is the Islamic year of the Hijra. Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 ... nonsense. Another nice and gentle comment from Christopher... Thank you Mr. Buyer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 "1323 is the Islamic year of the Hijra." - Yeah, we know! It is converted in this translation into AD 1905. So what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 "1323 is the Islamic year of the Hijra." - Yeah, we know! It is converted in this translation into AD 1905. So what? Good. Brilliant, I am absolutely overjoyed that you know it. Now, what the dickens does it have to do with the Chinese year of the snake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) Dear James, please offer us YOUR OWN translation and explanation of these words from the firman: "...khodeman dar baraye navvab-e 'aliyye-ye ‘āliyye prinses d.kāl zowjaye mohtarameye hazrat-e vala..." Edited March 30, 2012 by Mitya Ivanov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Now, what the dickens does it have to do with the Chinese year of the snake? God, a piece of bleeding cake! I am unintelligent russian country boy! It is perfectly clear!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Dear James, please offer us YOUR OWN translation and explanation of these words from the firman: "...khodeman dar baraye navvab-e 'aliyye-ye ‘āliyye prinses d.kāl zowjaye mohtarameye hazrat-e vala..." The truncated phrase can be more or less divided into two parts. The first, ending at "alliye" says more or less Her Royal Highness Princess. Though the implication is that she is a Royal Highness by male-line descent (which she was not). I do not know what "d.kal" means. The last part seems to have been cut short and probably actually reads something like "mohtarameye hazrat-e vala aghdas shahzadeh ..." meaning Consort of His imperial Highness Prince ... I still don't see anything about Chinese year of the snake. Do you? Cheers, James Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) "I do not know what "d.kal" means". "Prinses D.Kal" (or "D.Gal") means "Princess of Wales". Edited March 30, 2012 by Mitya Ivanov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) "The first, ending at "alliye" says more or less Her Royal Highness Princess" But she is not called here neither Royal nor Highness. She is titled here as "highly-respected and highly-revered (-esteemed) Navvab Princess" - without any Royal Higness (Highness sounds as 'hazrat-e vala' or 'valahazrat', you know). So, tell me about the meaning of Navvab, please, once again. Maybe I've misunderstood smth. Edited March 31, 2012 by Mitya Ivanov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g1usxs Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Does anyone have the actual link to the firman? I appreciate if anyone does to provide the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Does anyone have the actual link to the firman? I appreciate if anyone does to provide the link. Check the first posts mate ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 "The first, ending at "alliye" says more or less Her Royal Highness Princess" But she is not called here neither Royal nor Highness. She is titled here as "highly-respected and highly-revered (-esteemed) Navvab Princess" - without any Royal Higness (Highness sounds as 'hazrat-e vala' or 'valahazrat', you know). So, tell me about the meaning of Navvab, please, once again. Maybe I've misunderstood smth. If you want transliteration say so. What I gave was interpretation. And if you want to get pedantic, that is perfectly fine too. But then where do you get "princess" from, since there is no word for princess in Persian? There is only "Shahzadeh Khanum" i.e. "lady son of a king". I have explained the meaning of Nawab already. It is used to indicate that the person is of the rank of Royal Highness or above. Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 "But then where do you get "princess" from, since there is no word for princess in Persian?" Dear friend, do you read Persian? If yes, why can not you see the very words 'prinses D.Gal' yourself? Open your eyes - it is written in this firman exactly: پرنسس د کال (Handwritten "G" looks just like "K" in firman (گ instead of ک ) - that's why "D.gal" can be easily misread as "D.kal"; "D.gal" is a more correct version). But if you don't read Persian, I just wonder what are you talking about here? How can you criticize the translation of this firman's fragments without knowing Persian alphabet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 One more thing, dear James: you see, it was me who asked two Persian-speaking philologists to read these fragments and two Persian-reading historians to check the result (and then I asked Nick to translate it into English and to post it here just because Nick's English is someway better than mine). I've even learned from all these linguo-histo-guys that at the end of 19th century many European geographical names and European titles had become familiar to Persians (and were adopted in Persian language) through France. 'Prinses D[e]gal' in this firman is nothing but French "Princesse De Galles" for English "Princess of Wales". Ex. the same happened to Duc/Duchesse:دوک / دوشس I don't think that after all the job done for me by these experts I do really need any 'transliterations' from the person who oops!ed to find and read 'prinses' in Persian letters in this firman. And I don't think the way you've chosen to talk to me (with all that "absolutely overjoyed that you know it" and "what the dickens does it have to do with") really fits the first word in the name of this site. No, I don't think so. Deliberately not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 "But then where do you get "princess" from, since there is no word for princess in Persian?" Dear friend, do you read Persian? If yes, why can not you see the very words 'prinses D.Gal' yourself? Open your eyes - it is written in this firman exactly: پرنسس د کال (Handwritten "G" looks just like "K" in firman (گ instead of ک ) - that's why "D.gal" can be easily misread as "D.kal"; "D.gal" is a more correct version). But if you don't read Persian, I just wonder what are you talking about here? How can you criticize the translation of this firman's fragments without knowing Persian alphabet? I don't know what you are talking about. I was responding to what was posted above, namely: "We, Muzaffar ad-Din Shāh Kadzhar, Shāhanshāh of all Persia… …to highly respected and highly honored (used the word close to french vénéré) Nəvvab-Princess De Kal (i.e. Princess of Wales - Nəvvab (another variant “Nawab” or “Nabob”) is a prince or prince successor to the throne - this word was used because of her husband ) venerable wife of its Highness … …to show friendship and unity between two governments are giving an award Aftab to bear it on the breast. In Muharram al-haram 1323 (Chinese year of a snake) (i.e. March 1905)” I see no Persian text, only the Romanized text quoted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 You are too aggressive today, James. It is totally unacceptable in any Gentlemen's Club. Don't know (and don't care) what has happened to you. But won't go on talking to you until you are slow down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Hoard Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 One more thing, dear James: you see, it was me who asked two Persian-speaking philologists to read these fragments and two Persian-reading historians to check the result (and then I asked Nick to translate it into English and to post it here just because Nick's English is someway better than mine). I've even learned from all these linguo-histo-guys that at the end of 19th century many European geographical names and European titles had become familiar to Persians (and were adopted in Persian language) through France. 'Prinses D[e]gal' in this firman is nothing but French "Princesse De Galles" for English "Princess of Wales". Ex. the same happened to Duc/Duchesse:دوک / دوشس I don't think that after all the job done for me by these experts I do really need any 'transliterations' from the person who oops!ed to find and read 'prinses' in Persian letters in this firman. And I don't think the way you've chosen to talk to me (with all that "absolutely overjoyed that you know it" and "what the dickens does it have to do with") really fits the first word in the name of this site. No, I don't think so. Deliberately not. I am afriad I find this playing the brute and then the innocent quite hard to believe. You are being quite disingenuous as you frequently are. Attack, then play innocent when you are retorted and do not like the reply. It is you who said "Dear James, please offer us YOUR OWN translation and explanation of these words from the firman". That is a specific, named, flagged, ask. Not quite the "I do not need transliterations" you now pretend. I earlier gave the additional information that the year referred to the Hijra. Your immediate reply was so what, you know. That was a signal of peace and politeness, I suppose! This is a forum to which all sorts of people come. Including people who do not know and want to learn. They may well not know that the year referred to was the Hijra, not the Chinese. Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) "Now, what the dickens does it have to do with the Chinese year of the snake?" You see, James, you'll make a greater progress if you read more books instead of posting more and more of your arrogant comments here. Or just type in 'Chinese-Uighur animal calendar in Persia' in any search engine. Or just read the first column here: http://www.jstor.org...id=70&uid=4&sid=559734 Or read this at least: "The form of this calendar used by Iranians combined features of the Chinese-Uighur original with those of the lunar Hejrī and Jalālī calendars. Furthermore, during the period of seven centuries in which this calendar was in use, from the Mongol invasion until 1304 Š./1925, certain additional modifications were made." (http://www.iranicaon...s/calendars#pt2) Do you know only on March 31, 1925 the tradition to use Chinese names of the year was abandond by Reza Pahlavi? Now tell us once again about exclusively "Hijra, not the Chinese". Ask me once again about where do I get "princess" from, "since there is no word for princess in Persian". Come on, James the Enlightener! Go, Mr. Dickens! :) Edited March 31, 2012 by Mitya Ivanov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitya Ivanov Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 PS: If anyone needs it - all the fragments of this firman seen: به فضل و عنایت خداوند متعال ما مظفّرالدین شاه قاجار شاهنشاه کلّ ممالک ایران خودمان درباره نوّاب علیه عالیه پرنسس دکال زوجه محترمه حضرت والا مودت و یگانگی این دو دولت متعزّی الیها را باعطای [به اعطای] یک قطعه نشان محترم آفتاب مکلل به الماس با حمایل مخصوص آن قرین ابتهاج فرمودیم که طراز سینه اعتبار خود فرمایند فی شهر محرم الحرام ئیلان ئیل 1323 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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