RedMaestro Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Right on man! One should never relax with these soviets... What we have here is actually two different number 9!!! One that I posted (post #17) and the other that Alex posted (it has an extra rivet and many others differences (anvil, flowers, star...) that I simply didn't noticed because automatically assume that (since it has 9 on reverse) it is exactly the same specimen). Ain't it nice? Alex specimen looks like a fake made (and pretty well made I must add) after Herfurth specimen ... Or vice versa (hardly though) ... Or they are both fakes Herfurth specimen indeed has some eccentric features. For example form of torch Regards, Nick Wow, I totally missed that. And my number 9 was featured in the major annual US sale. Great observation, Nick! I'm really getting a kick out of this. We should do a whole series on republican orders for even more fun. :cheeky: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Wow, I totally missed that. Same here... Good thing Oleg was around Yep, this american 9 is definitely a fake... I wonder how many they were asking for it... 30 kg's + ? The only question if Herfurth piece is authentic one... I'm really getting a kick out of this. We should do a whole series on republican orders for even more fun. Such series could cause many heart attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) RedMaestro, you've asked a good question about books and I've read hundreds. Here are a few you can find on Amazon, they might change your opinion on some things. Heat, Color, Set & Fire is a very good book on understanding the jewelry design, you can have a simple and a close look on how things done, I highly recommend this one. Enameling on Metal is another good book if you want to get a little more crafty, the more you know this stuff the better it gets. I also find very useful The Comprehensive Guide to Soviet Medals and Orders that was published in the 90s, the authors have a good insight. Russian Orders, Decorations and Medals Including Those of Imperial Russia the Provisional Government and the Soviet Union is a book with a huge name and some good details on oddities and rarities, too bad, I don't have it anymore, it was very helpful. Foldmorfing is a very good and detailed book on the self-titled technique. Hot Connections is another jewelry book that may help you out, not in my top 10, but it delivers. Warman's Vintage Jewelry is a very good picture book, it may be very helpful, because you can learn to distinguish modern things from vintage and vise versa. Gold & Platinum Jewelry Buying Guide is very helpful when it comes to precious metals, I highly recommend this or any other book with the same title. As for the history books, I prefer reading memoirs, there is a good russian website, where you can find the thing that suits your taste, but for the english-speaking community I would recommend The Soviet Soldier by Philipe Rio, The Soviet Century by Moshe Lewin, The Great Patriotic War by Alexander Hill and A History Of The Soviet Effort by Richard Overy. That's just a sample of what I've been reading for the last couple years. Books about jewelry and metals help you understand the things you might get in your hands - when it was built, how it was built, who was the builder and most of all - what material was used. I had Heroes of the Soviet Union, but I don't have it anymore, you might find it very useful and interesting to read, although I don't know if there was an english version. I base my opinions on things I read and things I see, so when I hold something in my arms and say that it's vintage, then it means that it's vintage, but it's very hard to say something when you are dealing with a scan or a photo, because a lot of things matter and a lot of obvious things don't. Cheers. Edited May 31, 2012 by Mogul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedMaestro Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Thanks, Mogul. That's a very interesting list, quite telling. I think you might be relying on jewelry guides too much and not enough on faleristic guides in your assessment of authenticity. The case of this Transcaucasian order is somewhat unusual. Here we have a fantastically rare award with few examples to begin with and a consensus on even fewer. I doubt any of the books you've listed (aside from the Decorations of the Provisional Govt. And USSR maybe) can provide an affirmed, authentic example of this order with which to compare yours in faleristic terms rather than jewelry. ...A brief aside here, do you think the order#71/3 that I posted is authentic? anyway... Now take the case of some of the other orders you posted, the Suvorovs and Red Banner and OPWs. There is a relatively large sample size for all of these, along with very very detailed reference guides. There are also excellent fakes. Your jeweler is not going to be able to pick up the subtle details that distinguish an original from a fake, like the shape of Suvorov's nose or the engraving style or the shape of a rivet. Your jewelry books will be similarly useless. I think they may have a time and place in medal collecting and may even have something important to add, but it is not in matters of authenticity. By the way, thanks for the historical literature recommendations. I'll put those on my list. Can't wait til my Russian is good enough to read Voennaya Literatura. Edited May 31, 2012 by RedMaestro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted May 31, 2012 Author Share Posted May 31, 2012 Thanks, Mogul. That's a very interesting list, quite telling. I think you might be relying on jewelry guides too much and not enough on faleristic guides in your assessment of authenticity. The case of this Transcaucasian order is somewhat unusual. Here we have a fantastically rare award with few examples to begin with and a consensus on even fewer. I doubt any of the books you've listed (aside from the Decorations of the Provisional Govt. And USSR maybe) can provide an affirmed, authentic example of this order with which to compare yours in faleristic terms rather than jewelry. ...A brief aside here, do you think the order#71/3 that I posted is authentic? anyway... Now take the case of some of the other orders you posted, the Suvorovs and Red Banner and OPWs. There is a relatively large sample size for all of these, along with very very detailed reference guides. There are also excellent fakes. Your jeweler is not going to be able to pick up the subtle details that distinguish an original from a fake, like the shape of Suvorov's nose or the engraving style or the shape of a rivet. Your jewelry books will be similarly useless. I think they may have a time and place in medal collecting and may even have something important to add, but it is not in matters of authenticity. By the way, thanks for the historical literature recommendations. I'll put those on my list. Can't wait til my Russian is good enough to read Voennaya Literatura. I have a few faleristic guides on my shelf somewhere, but they don't really help when it comes to definition of age. I talk jewelry a lot, because these two things go back to back and they have a lot of things in common. I'll try to explain. I don't believe in standards, because standard things happen only when it's 100% machinery built, but in our case there are no two identical pieces, it's impossible to make two things look alike. No jeweler would ever bother to make a 100% replica of an order like Lenin or anything else, because he'd rather make a Cartier replica and have a good taste of it. #71 looks authentic, but I need a magnifying glass to make sure and I need to weight it in my arm, if you get my drift here. I know patina well and I can tell when it's new or old. Sometimes I need to consult with specialists, because the standards for precious metals differ each year. I am 100% certain most of my orders are genuine, because I know when they were built. Trouble is, the modern replicas that pop up aged these days are almost indistinguishable because of the modern tech. A few years ago Bouvet threw out some watches that were properly aged to look like antiques and in fact they were antiques because of the aging techniques that became available a few years ago. I don't think that anybody can tell anything certain about any suspicious order only by looking at the picture. The only thing that won't lie is the metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Back on track We will start with third type of fake dubious specimens. Here it comes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Type 3 Unfortunately we have only obverse photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) This one came straight from the famous “Avers № 6, Soviet Order and Medals” published in Moscow in 2003 (p.408). In this catalogue this piece was described as “At the photo copy of order presented” Edited June 1, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 This copy has very easily detected feature … Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 And back to originals more promising looking pieces First will be this very interesting specimen number 82. Number 82 Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Obverse (another angle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Clamping plate (obverse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Clamping plate (reverse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Screw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Ready-assembled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) Looking nice, isn’t it? And now no less interesting specimen number 126 Number 126 Obverse Edited June 1, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Clamping plate (obverse) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Screw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Numbers 86, 109 and 126 share one common feature scratched/engraved letters/numbers. Here they are. Mark on reverse of number 86. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Mark on reverse of number 109. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Or maybe this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Mark on reverse of number 126. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) All these marks make you wonder if Kutsenko specimen has something similar on reverse (what usually reads as number 17) Edited June 1, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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