JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) Herfurth №9 vs. American auction house №9 Remeber I confused Herfurth №9 specimen with american №9? Why? This is an interesting question…. Maybe because they have identical reverses? Allow me to show you something. Edited June 1, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Reverse of Herfurth №9 specimen is on the left. Actually he has a rivet, although it is practically invisible because of the photo blink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) We a looking at the very same reverse!!! Reverses are identical in every little respect -patina, scratches, etc… And now lets compare obverses (Herfurth №9 specimen is on the left again) Edited June 1, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) Nope... These are two completely different obverses! So how it is actually possible?! Regards, Nick Edited June 1, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 Nick, these are some good finds. I don't like #82's reverse, the surface looks very ruff and artificially aged, but you can always test your patina in a lab and get the best result. #9 gives me creeps, this thing is a mystery! My question is - when both these pictures were taken? I might have a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I don't like #82's reverse #9 gives me creeps They are simply nothing in comparison with natural beauty of № 39 and № 42 My question is - when both these pictures were taken? I might have a theory. Let me put it this way - in two different centuries ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 They are simply nothing in comparison with natural beauty of № 39 and № 42 Let me put it this way - in two different centuries ... Come on, stop breaking them balls, but really, the surface is to rough. I've never seen anything like it. If you are talking two different centuries, then I think that the obverses came from different orders because of a mixup or something like that. I don't think that anybody would do a replica of a certain #9 reverse, but make a different obverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleg Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Nick, these are some good finds. I don't like #82's reverse, the surface looks very ruff and artificially aged, but you can always test your patina in a lab and get the best result. #9 gives me creeps, this thing is a mystery! My question is - when both these pictures were taken? I might have a theory. I would love to buy that copy with the price of a copy. The patina is original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 I would love to buy that copy with the price of a copy. The patina is original. If patina is original then it's not a copy, but a genuine order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleg Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 If patina is original then it's not a copy, but a genuine order. What if it's 40 years old fake? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) What if it's 40 years old fake? Who would actually bother faking this in the 60s or 70s? There was no market. As long as patina is real the order is real. But if talk these days, I don't know, the tech in jewelry design is way ahead of it's time and you can literally replicate anything. Edited June 1, 2012 by Mogul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I would love to buy that copy with the price of a copy. The patina is original. No way! You'll be outbid by me mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Who would actually bother faking this in the 60s or 70s? There was no market. As long as patina is real the order is real. But if talk these days, I don't know, the tech in jewelry design is way ahead of it's time and you can literally replicate anything. Of course there was a market... Although a different one... Conversed first types of Suvorov order were selling for less than second types... I wish I was there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 1, 2012 Author Share Posted June 1, 2012 Of course there was a market... Although a different one... Conversed first types of Suvorov order were selling for less than second types... I wish I was there... I always thought that this thing started in 90s. Sure thing the whole movement was around for ages, but I never thought that somebody was selling his stuff back in the Soviet days. Thanks for info. I was always wondering if somebody ever ordered a copy of his own order back in the days, you know, like these guys in Poland did. For example, you don't want to wear your original Suvorov, so you find a jeweler and make yourself a perfect copy that you won't cry about if it's missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) Some additional thoughts about "private workshops"... Allow me to remind you dear colleagues what Kutsenko and Smirnov in their book ("Orders of Soviet Republics"/Куценко А., Смирнов Ю. "Ордена Советских Республик". 1996) wrote "Эскиз трудового ордена Закавказской Федерации был утвержден решением Президиума ЗСФСР 22 февраля 1932 года и сразу же передан для исполнения в металле на Ленинградский Монетный двор. А 7 марта того же года «в ознаменование исключительных заслуг перед ЗСФСР в деле социалистического строительства и укрепления хозяйственно-политической мощи» и в связи с юбилеем республики была награждена этим орденом большая группа ветеранов революции, рабочих-ударников, колхозников и служащих – всего 111 человек" and "До отмены награждений республиканскими орденами кавалерами Закавказской трудовой награды стали еще несколько десятков человек. Одно из последних награждений орденом Трудового Красного Знамени ЗСФСР состоялось 25 февраля 1933 года: 3-я сессия ЗакЦИК шестого созыва единогласно утвердила постановление Президиума Закавказского Центрального Исполнительного Комитета о награждении орденом ЗСФСР Наркома по военным и морским делам К.Е.Ворошилова" and "К осени 1932 года заказ на изготовление знаков ордена Трудового Красного Знамени ЗСФСР был выполнен." So, I believe it was probably the Leningrad Mint that made at least the first 111 pieces between February 22, 1932 and March 7, 1932 and I would never believed that in USSR the order for the order could be 111... No way! It was probably 150 or 200 orders ... So we should really expect some uniformity between these Transcaucasians... Edited June 1, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 "Эскиз трудового ордена Закавказской Федерации был утвержден решением Президиума ЗСФСР 22 февраля 1932 года и сразу же передан для исполнения в металле на Ленинградский Монетный двор. А 7 марта того же года «в ознаменование исключительных заслуг перед ЗСФСР в деле социалистического строительства и укрепления хозяйственно-политической мощи» и в связи с юбилеем республики была награждена этим орденом большая группа ветеранов революции, рабочих-ударников, колхозников и служащих – всего 111 человек" and "До отмены награждений республиканскими орденами кавалерами Закавказской трудовой награды стали еще несколько десятков человек. Одно из последних награждений орденом Трудового Красного Знамени ЗСФСР состоялось 25 февраля 1933 года: 3-я сессия ЗакЦИК шестого созыва единогласно утвердила постановление Президиума Закавказского Центрального Исполнительного Комитета о награждении орденом ЗСФСР Наркома по военным и морским делам К.Е.Ворошилова" "К осени 1932 года заказ на изготовление знаков ордена Трудового Красного Знамени ЗСФСР был выполнен." Thanks for info, I always thought that principal giving happened right after the establishment of this order. I always thought that 140 men were awarded with this order. I don't think that Leningrad Mint did any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 So the Leningrad Mint made only one order? For real? Do you really think that it was rational (and humanly possible if it comes to that!) to manufacture in 14 days (between February 22, 1932 and March 7, 1932) 111 orders in different private workshops, when Leningrad Mint already had production capabilities and facilities? Fat chance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 So the Leningrad Mint made only one order? For real? Do you really think that it was rational (and humanly possible if it comes to that!) to manufacture in 14 days (between February 22, 1932 and March 7, 1932) 111 orders in different private workshops, when Leningrad Mint already had production capabilities and facilities? Fat chance! Wait, wait, wait! Where is the order made by Leningrad Mint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 That's where "Эскиз трудового ордена Закавказской Федерации был утвержден решением Президиума ЗСФСР 22 февраля 1932 года и сразу же передан для исполнения в металле на Ленинградский Монетный двор" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 That's where "Эскиз трудового ордена Закавказской Федерации был утвержден решением Президиума ЗСФСР 22 февраля 1932 года и сразу же передан для исполнения в металле на Ленинградский Монетный двор" I mean the actual order with all the seals and stuff. Funny thing is that most of these orders look vintage, I'm even certain that every piece is genuine but #9 because of the obverse confusion. Even the pictures in books differ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 A better picture of obverse. Can't do proper reverse anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I mean the actual order with all the seals and stuff. So you really think that orders that was made in Leningrad Mint between 1925 and 1933 should have "seals and stuff"... In this case go http://mondvor.narod.ru/ORBan.html and try to find these "seals and stuff" on RSFSR Order of Red Banner I'm even certain that every piece is genuine but #9 because of the obverse confusion. Sounds like nice HaPPy eNdinGg... Hmmm..... Nope, we are not in "strictly for dummies" hollywood blockbuster :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 A better picture of obverse. Can't do proper reverse anymore. Gorgeously man! You know what is my current dream? To see a nice scans of obverse/reverse/screw of #42. It would be so cool ... I wonder if Vic could be so generous and make them for us ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogul Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) So you really think that orders that was made in Leningrad Mint between 1925 and 1933 should have "seals and stuff"... I don't know for sure, that's why I'm asking! Edited June 2, 2012 by Mogul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I don't know for sure, that's why I'm asking! Gotcha! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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