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Homerjey

Diplomat with china double dragon

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Homerjey   

Hello,

can someone tell me which class of double dragon (under the Stanislaus-Orden 2. Klasse

) he carries?

Thanks

Thomas

Edited by Homerjey

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drclaw   

Hello Thomas,

He is wearing a First Type, Third Class Double Dragon, awarded between 1882 to 1901. The picture is a little fuzzy to tell the Grade (the First, Second and Third Classes each had three Grades).

Could you post the full image of the gentleman? I always enjoy seeing photos of recipients wearing the Double Dragon.

I see he is also wearing the Order of Osmania among others. He must have been a very well travelled chap.

Gavin

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drclaw   

My initial impression was that yours was a Third Class award. But now, I'm not absolutely sure after seeing the full photograph.

All the First Type Double Dragons (with the possible exception of the Fifth Class) were worn as neck badges although there were some transitional breast stars as well.

The Second Class awards were larger and more circular; while the Third Class awards were more an oval shape.

Here are pictures of two recipients with the First Type Double Dragon.

The one on the left is wearing a (large) Second Class, Third Grade badge.

The one on the right is wearing a Third Class neck badge, also below a St Stanislaus. This might give you some idea of the relative sizes of the Second and Third Class badges.

Good luck and let us know how you go!

Gavin

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_07_2012/post-11630-0-26346900-1341651920.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_07_2012/post-11630-0-79410500-1341651959.jpg

Edited by drclaw

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Hi Gavin,

You seem to know what you're talking about :)

I have always found this area rather difficult, since even auction catalogues seem to name this decoration with random type, class and grade descriptions...

Are you able to identify this decoration below?

I only have his miniature decorations.

It was awarded approx. 1908 and in his papers it is called "3. class, 3. grade", but they (and even himself) might not have known exactly what he was awarded...

/Michael

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drclaw   

Hi there Michael,

It is a Second Type, Third Class Double Dragon (blue enamel colour of the centre medallion, blue centre stone), awarded between 1902-1911.

Normally, you can tell what Grade it is by looking at the patterned border around the centre stone and from the manchu inscriptions running along the left side of the medallion but it is hard to tell in this case given it's a miniature.

Awards were conferred according to the recipient's status or rank. The categories of awards - which remained fairly stable throughout the 30 year history of the Order were as follows and can be helpful in identifying an individual recipient.

These are taken from a professional English translation I obtained for the original 1882 Statutes. The text in square brackets is what has come to be accepted today so it is interesting to see some variation.

* First Class, First Grade - for the king or emperor of a country [foreign heads of state]

* First Class, Second Grade - for princes, and royal family members and relatives [crown princes and prime ministers]

* First Class, Third Grade - for hereditary ministers, general ministers, envoys of the first rank [nobles, cabinet ministers, ambassadors, top ranking military officers]

* Second Class, First Grade - for envoys of the second rank ministers, lieutenant-generals and vice-admirals]

* Second Class, Second Grade - for envoys of the third rank and general customs commissioners [consul-generals, major-generals and rear-admirals]

* Second Class, Third Grade - for counselors of the first rank, higher level military officers, consul-generals and military generals [high officials, school superintendents, brigadier-generals and commodores]

* Third Class, First Grade - for counselors of the second and third ranks, the entourage of consul-generals, captains of the first rank, and generals of the third rank [consuls and high officials]

* Third Class, Second Grade - for deputy consuls, captains of the second rank and generals of the fourth rank [vice-consuls, lesser officials, lieutenant-colonels or commanders]

* Third Class, Third Grade - for translators and military officers of the fifth and sixth rank [lower ranking diplomats, majors and captains]

* Fourth Class - for soldiers [lieutenants and NCOs]

* Fifth Class - for businessmen [businessmen]

The low status accorded to men of commerce - where the wealthiest Western industrialist would be outranked by the most junior embassy translator - reflects the traditional Confucian distaste for the merchant class.

In the Confucian scheme of things, agriculture and the gentry-literati was celebrated (although this didn't help the peasants much when they were starving from drought, flood, locusts or war), while profit seeking commerce was treated with aloof disdain.

I am about to release a small book on the Double Dragon which I wrote with the generous support of others, like Richard La Tondre, and a number of auction houses who contributed photographs.

So watch this space if you're interested.

Gavin

Edited by drclaw

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drclaw   

If you have the miniature handy, it might be worth checking out if there is a distinct patterned border around the centre stone.

For the Second Type Second Class and Third Class Double Dragons, the different grades are:

* First Grade - pattern of five-petalled flowers

* Second Grade - T- (or S-) shaped fret pattern

* Third Grade - wedge shaped or M-shaped pattern

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Thanks a lot for this thorough explanation. As I mentioned I tried to learn from reading auction catalog descriptions, but I just got more and more confused...

The miniature is too small to provide any additional info, I'm afraid. Around the center stone (in the light blue enamel) are just 12 golden 'dots'.

According to his file, he was a "Naval advisor to the viceroy of Chihli in China" 1903-08 (my translation from danish to english might not be accurate, but I hope you get the meaning).

At that time his rank was lieutenant (he became captain in 1917), but he might have been appointed temporary captain when he was stationed abroad (this seems to be normal procedure).

At least that would explain the 3. class, 3. grade award.

Was the 3. class, 3. grade worn on the breast?

And was the ribbon blue with yellow side stripes as on the miniature?

/Michael

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drclaw   

What an interesting individual!

Most of the foreign naval officers training or advising the Chinese Navy were British and these made up a large category of recipients in the London Gazette listings (this published British Government approvals to citizens to accept and wear the Double Dragon).

But of course, the Danes are an equally famous sea-faring race!

If he was a "Naval Advisor to the Viceroy of Chihli in China", he may have been attached to the Imperial Naval Training Academy at Tianjin.

The First and Second Class comprised a sash badge and breast star.

The Third Class and Fourth Class were a neck badge.

The Fifth Class was a breast badge.

The sash ribbon for the First and Second Class was a maroon red. However many recipients wore the badge as a neck badge on a variety of unofficial ribbons of different colours (some with dragons embroidered on them). The ribbons for the Third to Fifth Class was blue with yellow / gold stripes.

The 3rd Class 3rd Grade would seem the appropriate award for him. Could you tell us his name?

Gavin

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JapanX   

Looks like the translation of original 1882 statute is finished ;)

:cheers:

Nick

Edited by JapanX

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Thanks, Gavin

His name was Andreas August Kinch.

He retired from the Navy due to age in 1903 (he was born in 1861). From 1903 to 1908 naval advisor in Chihli, China and recalled for duty in Naval Intelligence in 1914.

Finally retired as a captain in 1918.

Thanks for all the great info :)

/Michael

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drclaw   

A very interesting fellow, Michael. Five years in China as naval adviser to the Qing Government.

Thanks for sharing!

Gavin

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drclaw   

Thanks, Gavin

His name was Andreas August Kinch.

He retired from the Navy due to age in 1903 (he was born in 1861). From 1903 to 1908 naval advisor in Chihli, China and recalled for duty in Naval Intelligence in 1914.

Finally retired as a captain in 1918.

Thanks for all the great info :)

/Michael

The Viceroy of Zhili then was Yuan Shikai who would of course become President of the Republic of China. Yuan clearly had a fondness for Nordics.

Norwegian Johann Munthe was Yuan's close friend and served as his adjutant during Yuan's stint as Viceroy of Zhili, rising to the rank of Major-General.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/57887-general-munthe-adventurer-art-collector-chinese-medal-designer/

In January 1909, Yuan was dismissed and forced to return to his estate by the Regent Prince Chun. Prince Chun never forgave Yuan for betraying the Guangxu Emperor (Prince Chun's brother) during the Hundred Days Reforms by supporting the Empress Dowager's coup.

With the fall of his patron, General Muthe returned to the Imperial Chinese Customs Service and I see here that Captain Kinch's role as naval adviser also ended in 1908.

When Yuan Shikai became President in 1912, he promoted his friend General Munthe to general aide-de-camp and adviser in the Ministry of War with the rank of Lieutenant General, believed to be the highest rank ever held by a foreigner in the Chinese Army. Two years later in 1914, he recalled Captain Kinch as well to Naval Intelligence.

Michael - do you know if Captain Kinch received any of the Republic's new Orders?

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Thanks for the interesting story about Yuan.

Reading this thread again, I realize I haven't corrected an earlier mistake. Kinch was recalled for duty in Naval Intelligence in Denmark. Probably as a part of the mobilization force during WWI (in which Denmark was neutral).

The above 3 decorations were all he received.

/Michael

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Glenn J   

The German naval officer in post #4 is Korvetten-Kapitän Herwarth Schmidt von Schwind, 1866-1941, a later Vizeadmiral. At the throat he is wearing a Braunschweig Henry the Lion Commander's Cross and a Third Class, 1st Grade Double Dragon. His two Russian Commander's Crosses; Anne and Stanislaus are clearer in this thread from 2008.

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/27173-henry-the-lion-commander-cross-pic/

Regards

Glenn

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drclaw   

Thanks for that Glenn. It's one of my favourite images of Double Dragon recipients but until now didn't have a name or a story to go with the picture.

Cheers

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JapanX   

It's one of my favourite images of Double Dragon recipients but until now didn't have a name or a story to go with the picture.

In this case you gonna like this one too ;)

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JapanX   

Well, second type, 3rd class, 1 grade is certanly something...

But another highlight of this bar is japanese red cross medal (life member) mounted german style!!!

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drclaw   

Glenn, were there any restrictions on German recipients on the wearing of the Double Dragon?

For example, the UK Regulations Respecting Foreign Orders (1855) prohibited British subjects from accepting or wearing a foreign order without prior approval by the British Government.

Permission could be granted in only limited circumstances: where the recipient had performed “active and distinguished service before the enemy”; or where the recipient had been “actually and entirely employed, beyond Her Majesty’s dominions, in the service of the foreign sovereign by whom the Order is conferred”.

Strict time limits applied and approval had to be sought within two years of the conclusion of peace, or from the date of employment or service.

As such, British citizens could not receive permission to wear foreign Orders conferred as a gift or courtesy. Most of higher class Double Dragons - awarded to visiting British diplomats, statesmen, military officers, etc - would therefore fall in this category.

So I wonder if other countries (e.g. Germany, France, Russia) were more relaxed with their citizens?

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Glenn J   

Gavin,

the Germans were certainly more relaxed in this respect than the British and all foreign awards and decorations could be worn following the gazetting of such after approval by the sovereign etc. The only restriction on the Double Dragon was that subaltern officers of the Army and Navy (Leutnants and Oberleutnants and their equivalents) were to wear even neck grade orders on the medal bar until promotion to Hauptmann/Rittmeister/Kapitänleutnant etc.

Regards

Glenn

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drclaw   

Thanks for this info Glen. Interesting info about the rank restrictions on the wearing of neck grade orders.

The Japanese were equally relaxed and enjoyed wearing their finery. In terms of the photographs I've seen of senior recipients wearing the Double Dragon, the Japanese would make up the largest group.

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JapanX   

The Japanese were equally relaxed

I am afraid they weren't.

To wear a foreign decoration you should get a permission first (the usual time gap between original doc and japanese permission to wear it is 4-6 months).

... enjoyed wearing their finery.

Who wouldn't? :whistle:

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