Graf Posted October 6, 2016 Author Share Posted October 6, 2016 Hi Vazov, The Order you passed on could be OK. Simply we rely on sources where only discuss and show items that follow the rules The central medallions resemble the ones from 1915 Model.. However it is your judgment and do not regret. Orders with "three dots" do exist. 1st Class Order for Bravery with "three dots" was sold on 25-th June 2010 on 173 Auction of Kuenker in in Osnabruck. It was a par of the one of the biggest sale of Bulgarian Orders out of Bulgaria. The collection belonged to a Bulgarian living in Paris. The reason that there are some unusual pieces surfacing on the market is that most of the Bulgarian Orders were made by German, French Austrian and at the beginning Russian makers and sometimes they produced "once off' pieces that are either with the family of the recipient or in private collections and never have been shown to the rest of the world. That is why I opened the thread "Military Order with error" I have few pieces in my collection listed in different threads which had features not following the strict rules However it does not mean that we do not have to be alert about the fakes and that is the role of those forums. There could be situations when some parts were replaced because the decoration was damaged or the part was lost. Those are genuine alterations, compared to the latest changes made by fakers to increase the value of the Order. BTW I looked closely the eMedals 4th Class with the lilies You are correct -no pattern under the red enamel of the arms. It looks it is the model with smooth edges of the arms. I have the other model and I can only assume that it was the way it was made Similar scenario as the one on the pictures bellow The ribbon ring is marked 800 for silver Regards Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunmac96 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Hi, Ebay has several sites selling immaculate copies of any type of Bulgarian Order or Medals Not being a collector of that country's medals I'm no expert but I'd be very wary as most are being sold a genuine. The same sites in Bulgaria are also selling medals from France, Belgium and Austria, also up to WW1 Germany, many obvious replicas among them. Regards, Duncan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilieff Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Hi all, @Graf Apolgoies, by 'post-war' I actually meant post-WW1 issue. The image posted by me should be of a standart issue 1st class Star of the '3-dots' issue. I've uploaded it for reference as the conversation was going for the poor quality of the sword handles of the fake star you posted. The 'three dots' issues are very rare indeed. That's one of the reasons why even researchers are not very confident about it. From the few issues available today (as far as I know, only 1st, 2nd and 4th class 2nd grade issues are known), researchers conclude that this emission has either been a trial emission, or has been minted in very limited numbers in order to decorate a small number of individuals. In his books Todor Pertov mentioned (can't recall exactly) that a Soviet general has also been presented (after the communist coup d'etat) with the 1st class set with three stars (i.e. dots) on the obverse. This suggests that the Chancellery of Bulgarian orders did still have this emission in stock. A side note here: Little known fact is that actually once the communists took over the power in the land, their militias stormed into the Chancellery and started hammering down all the orders and medals because, according to their beliefs, 'all royal and fascist symbols should be erased'. Unexpectedly though (considering that WW2 was still raging), a new large batch of new decorations arrives (having been ordered well before that). Then, someone slightly more intelligent than the members of the militia, has suggested that instead of destroying these, the new government can actually make use of them by amending their appearance slightly. This is how the whole concoction of the so called regency and republican issues came to pass - the royal cyphers, effigies and crowns were removed at different stages. Back to my point - at different times, different practice has been used when decorating individuals. For example, after WW2 and probably after WW1 too, decorations with the Order "For Bravery" have been conducted either with old 'seven dots' badges in stock, or with amended badges - the central medallions, featuring '1915' or '1941' on the obverse have been changed with old ones (usually 'seven dots' ones). Some assume that the goal of the 'three dots' issue was indeed to satisfy the need of certain scarce classes which did not have '1915' inscribed on them (for obvious reasons), in order to resume decorations during the interwar years. Following this logic, the 3rd class 2nd grade badge shown above by Vazov could well be an example of the above - a 1941(1915) issue with changed frontal central medallion. Lastly, do not forget the third kind of badges (along with genuine samples and fakes) - the custom-made samples, produced upon request of their holders. I believe the above Soldiers' cross shown by Graf is such example. I've seen pictures of 2-3 similar badges, all of which used to belong to Germans. Again, looking at the unorthodox badge 4th class 1 grade posted by Vazov, this could well be a custom made badge too. Of course, this cannot be easily proven. It's just my feeling. It all got too long to read. Sorry about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I believe this badge is a fake: lack of details, looks brand shiny new, sloppy uneven assembly, lack of correct screwback system... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 I just found in my files one of the Viktor/Karissa Masterpieces Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) 19 hours ago, Graf said: I just found in my files one of the Viktor/Karissa Masterpieces Only cross on the left is in question, correct? Also, as far as I understand cross itself is likely original, but with added diamonds. Edited October 16, 2016 by new world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 More fake stuff that's out there now: Bravery 3 cl 1st grade 1915-1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 Hi New World, Yes, you are right only the 3rd Class 1st Grade Star is fake -It has Diamonds added to it to look Luxury Model. It means that a Good Order was butchered for sinister purpose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.Vazov Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 On 16/10/2016 at 22:54, new world said: More fake stuff that's out there now: Bravery 3 cl 1st grade 1915-1917 Hi New World, I saw as well this order which is, as you know, a missing piece in my collection and I had a doubt as well. To be honest, it is really well done and I think it can confuse. I'm not even sure what exactly bothered me in it. I'd like to have your and Graf's advice on this one. What I see as bothering is: - the lion in the center medalion does not have enough relief; - the number 1 is too slim; - the reverse is too rough and the attaching mechanism is too thick; Overall I think, hélas, that for a fake it's damn well made.... What you think? By which details you recognise it is a fake? Many thanks! Vazov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 27 minutes ago, V.Vazov said: Hi New World, I saw as well this order which is, as you know, a missing piece in my collection and I had a doubt as well. To be honest, it is really well done and I think it can confuse. I'm not even sure what exactly bothered me in it. I'd like to have your and Graf's advice on this one. What I see as bothering is: - the lion in the center medalion does not have enough relief; - the number 1 is too slim; - the reverse is too rough and the attaching mechanism is too thick; Overall I think, hélas, that for a fake it's damn well made.... What you think? By which details you recognise it is a fake? Many thanks! Vazov I'd say all of the above, plus: - green enamel is rough and has small holes, - numbers 5 and 7 are wrong (as compared to known crosses), - pin and catch hook are not typical of Bulgarian awards, - letters in green circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 I agree with all of the above. I suspect the enamel is "new soft type' one The pin attachment system is typical of the many WW2 Fakes of the 1st Class Iron Cross Vazov, do not forget that this is a very high class and also very rare one. One can expect a very high quality for them, because they were not made in big numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) Questionable Bravery cross 4th class 1st grade, Edited October 22, 2016 by new world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.Vazov Posted October 29, 2016 Share Posted October 29, 2016 I completely agree with New World ! This seller has quite some questionnable items.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 more "treasures" from the same source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Another fake one for sale. Not sure who they are going to fool with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 Hi, Just to to as to let you know that three fake Stars will be on Auction in Austria on 11th of November. I will try to alert the the Auction House Be aware Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new world Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 OMG! I hope no one buys these stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruiz Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 The star is of very poor quality. are there pictures of the back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igor Ostapenko Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Fake "for merit" was sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Hi Igor, Can you give your arguments why this is a Fake to be more clear to the memberes of the Forum Hi Ruiz, There were no pictures of the reverse of those Stars i contacted the Auction House No reply so far Perhaps their Ego will not allow them to do so It looks like there is a "new kid on the block " perhaps in Bulgaria who is making and spreading those new wave of fakes. Although, there are no pictures on reverse I suspect the pin system is 100% identical for all three Stars as many common features you can see on the front - first you detected poor quality of the body of the m -they are identical for all of them - there is a poor details on the dots and the letters -the identical Ferdinand initial on the middle - the dark are on the edges of both Military merit Stars The only thing that can verify them as fakes is the "soft enamel' test which , sadly, we cannot perform I might be wrong, however when three Stars from the same Class with several common questionable features appear at the same time for sale -it should alarm bell very loudly BTW long time ago i held in my hands similar Stars and after identifying that they are fakes ( soft enamel was the biggest give away feature) I returned them to the famous at that time Faker Victor or Viktor or Karissa. At that time I did not keep any files of such items as i do now. Regards Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruiz Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 Graf, What is the "soft enamel' test ? Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 Hi Ruiz The main problem with the modern fakes is that they do not use the 'old' glass like enamel which is very hard an the transparent type ones have a very nice depth The modern enamel is soft acrylic type and is detected by so called "needle ' test i do not know who introduced it, however it is very useful test. You take a fine needle and very gently push on the the surface =the old enamel will resist while the new "soft one' will let the needle sink and leave a small mark/hole. Do not push very hard in case that the enamel is Original -you can cause a crack into it In some fakes certain parts could be replaced on an original orders to increase the value of the order. For example The Order of St Alexander - The Commander Cross with green enamel could be upgraded to 1st Class by swapping the central medallion - as seen in this thread. It is important to check all the enamel parts Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 (edited) On 11/7/2016 at 06:48, ruiz said: The star is of very poor quality. are there pictures of the back? Sold for 850 EURO plus Com. On 11/5/2016 at 16:17, Graf said: Hi, Just to to as to let you know that three fake Stars will be on Auction in Austria on 11th of November. I will try to alert the the Auction House Be aware Graf sold for 850 EURO plus com sold for 580 EURO plus com sold 550 EURO plus com Edited November 15, 2016 by Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruiz Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Thanks for your interesting answer Graf. Thanks for your interesting answer Graf. As for the sales of these awards, someone is going to have a serious dislike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graf Posted November 17, 2016 Author Share Posted November 17, 2016 Thank you RUIZ, The problem is that those who bought the Stars will never find this fact till they decide to sell them and the buyer detects the problem. There are many stories about that. There are many collectors out there who do not join any forums and keep the items in their collections without knowing that they have fakes or reproductions instead of the real ones As a novice collector I was one of them. I had few "rare' Orders and Crosses that i did buy on "bargain' prices Gradually after obtaining more knowledge, started sharing experience with other collectors and joining the Forum I found out the truth That is why i started this Thread couple of years ago to help fellow collectors loosing their hard made money for fakes. Some dealers are honest and will never sell fakes, even they show pictures from time to time well known fakes with the relevant information However there are also dealers, on EBay who write articles about fakes but they sale fake themselves Be Aware of those things Follow your guts experience Even there was a story of a WW2 German veteran who was the Knight Cross of the Iron Cross winner. After the war someone managed to swap his Original Cross with a fake. and he kept it till the family decided to sell the KC and it was discovered that it was fake Graf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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