Veteran Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Hello everyone Could this gilt metal 4th Class cross of the Order of Saint Wladimir be one of the post Csarist period ? The enamels look quite good and the arms of the cross are bulbeous. No hallmarks as far as I can see. Anyone have an idea ? I really wonder how one can tell them. Best regards Veteran Edited August 7, 2012 by Veteran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Hello everyone Could this gilt metal 4th Class cross of the Order of Saint Wladimir be one of the post Csarist period ? The enamels look quite good and the arms of the cross are bulbeous. No hallmarks as far as I can see. Anyone have an idea ? I really wonder how one can tell them. Best regards Veteran I am surprised it has no marks, normally bronze-gilt pieces are made either by Eduard or Dmitri Osipov. Having never encountered a provisonal government Vladimir I can only base information on other orders and I would suspect that the Imperial crown on the arms would be lacking, also during the Great War late Czarist period production of insignia was changed from gold to gilt bronze. From the information you have given me my suspicion is that it is a European (quite possibly French) made piece, many of which were produced during the latter part of the war when many allied soldiers who were awarded Russian decorations did not receive the award and during the civil war allied intervention. All the best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) Thank you Paul for this quick and considered information. I have had this for decades now and strangely a very similar cross with swords was recently sold on eBay. This is why this one came back to my mind. It does not look truly post-WW1-french, which are usually silver or silver gilt with proper hallmarks. Rather like this Cross of Saint-Georges, with flat enamels not the bulbeous look of the Saint Wladimir cross shown : But this could nevertheless be the case. Your help is, as usual, highly appreciated. Thanks again. Paul Edited August 8, 2012 by Veteran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Anyone have an idea ? I really wonder how one can tell them. We really need a better quality scans for that ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) I am surprised it has no marks, normally bronze-gilt pieces are made either by Eduard or Dmitri Osipov. As far as I remember there were Eduard specimens made in bronze without K on lower obverse ray. Having never encountered a provisonal government Vladimir I can only base information on other orders and I would suspect that the Imperial crown on the arms would be lacking, also during the Great War late Czarist period production of insignia was changed from gold to gilt bronze. Imperial crowns on the arms survived the democratization process Regards, Nick P.S. "He makes 2 and 2 make 5" .... Synergy?! :cheers: Edited August 8, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 P.S. "He makes 2 and 2 make 5" .... Synergy?! Nick, no offence meant and none taken I hope. You are right about the Eduard pieces, I have encountered some without the K. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Thank you Paul for this quick and considered information. I have had this for decades now and strangely a very similar cross with swords was recently sold on eBay. This is why this one came back to my mind. It does not look truly post-WW1-french, which are usually silver or silver gilt with proper hallmarks. Rather like this Cross of Saint-Georges, with flat enamels not the bulbeous look of the Saint Wladimir cross shown : But this could nevertheless be the case. Your help is, as usual, highly appreciated. Thanks again. Paul No marks again, does not look like a later piece, possibly emigre or civil war and as you are well aware there was a large emigre community in Paris so this could explain it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Nick, no offence meant and none taken I hope. Are you kidding?! Of course no! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) No marks again, does not look like a later piece, possibly emigre or civil war and as you are well aware there was a large emigre community in Paris so this could explain it Better photos + Give me some time and I'll post for you some nice photos of these bronze Vlad's for revolutionaries ;) Edited August 8, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Thank you all for your kind attention to this post. Here is as large a scan as I can manage to produce. The enamel has a "see-through" quality, showing the metal background. This background looks very much like the older crosses made by the Russian jewellers which French makers have not usually tried to produce.. Hope this helps. Best regards Veteran Edited August 9, 2012 by Veteran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Thank you all for your kind attention to this post. Here is as large a scan as I can manage to produce. The enamel has a "see-through" quality, showing the metal background. This background looks very much like the older crosses made by the Russian jewellers which French makers have not usually tried to produce.. Hope this helps. Best regards Veteran My suspicion is that this may be a 'White' Civil War period award, the lack of any marks pretty well debars it being a Czarist or Provisional Government, sorry I can't be more precise. Nick may have further ideas. All the best, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Paul I tend to agree with your suggestion. It makes full sense to me and really puts in better words what I meant by "Kerensky Period". I hope other members of this forum will be kind enough to express their thoughts about the whole thing. Thanks again. Paul Edited August 9, 2012 by Veteran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) There were two makers of St. Vladimir Order in bronze during provisional government period. Dmitry Osipov (only saw without the swords crosses) and Eduard. Osipov pieces usually bear mark Edited August 9, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Eduard pieces bear mark Usually these marks could be found on lower reverse (sometimes obverse) ray. Edited August 9, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Here comes model Eduard 4th class with swords Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Another Eduard Umarked 3rd class with swords Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) Another 3rd class with swords from Eduard Bayonet mounting + different style of central tablet Obverse Edited August 9, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Unmarked 4th class without swords from Eduard Obverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Tablet close ups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Now let`s turn our attention to Osipov pieces. 4th class without swords. Marked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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