Graf

SWEDEN ORDER OF THE SWORD - OLD MODEL

52 posts in this topic

Hi Graf

The style of crown suspension & swds being visible on reverse is not common. Perhaps it could be attributed to a certain date but without award documents or period fotos that would be a hard one to date. Your example is very striking. I find Swords having finials to be of later manufacture. Foto of an 1860 era with the ribbon dating from the 2nd Empire.

 

Sincerely

Yankee

 

img257.jpg

img258.jpg

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The double-sided swords type was issued from about 1856 to 1975!

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Thank you Megan,

 

That was my information, because from two sources it was dated 1850 and 1860

Hi Yankee I have not seen a Swedish Order of the Sword with a such rosette.It could have been given to a French person

If the photo is from 1960 then the rosette is completely correct for the France Second Empire period 1852-1869

Award Document will be of help if there is strong evidence that belongs to the Order

 

Graf

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Hi Megan

 

Have you any idea who the jeweler was for that long run in time.  Have you any sketches or fotos  from the inception of badge and post WWll to compare.  Maybe some subtle differences over the 100 plus years & perhaps we can date Graf's piece. 

 

Hi Graf

 

Most likely to somebody from France or one of the Italian States.  Have never seen an award document from the 2nd Empire era or a case too from that period.  Sure am curious.

 

Yankee

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At work - I'll see what I can dig up when I get home!

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ID: 31   Posted (edited)

On 12/2/2014 at 09:51, Yankee said:

A fine Napoleonic piece with an arched crown and solid crowns between each arm.

Maybe of German make, never seen another...........

Hi Yankee,

Here is another one sold recently by eMedals

swosnap1.jpg

swosnap2.jpg

swosnap.jpg

Edited by Graf

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Hi Graf

Looks much better in color.  Post 19 example has a broken hinge so we know its not the same piece. I've seen only two of this type in the dozen or so years to give you an idea of just how rare they are. There is a fine Swedish Auction site that occasionally offers some old Orders & Medals that you might like to view probusauktioner.se

Sincerely

Yankee

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Hi Yankee,

 

I know the Auction site. It is very nice one and i wanted to bid on it, however they do not have postage for outside of Sweden

 

Best

 

Graf

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ID: 34   Posted

 

Looks much better in color.  Post 19 example has a broken hinge so we know its not the same piece.

Actually seems to be the same piece. Look at the enamel damages.

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ID: 35   Posted

Except the left hilt is missing & attachment twisted to crown.

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ID: 36   Posted

Regardless of those small differences both of them look from the same period

 

When I listed the eMedals piece i did not mean that it was exactly the same as the one shown earlier in the thread

i did mean that the piece is the same model from the Napoleon period

 

Graf

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ID: 37   Posted

 

Regardless of those small differences both of them look from the same period

 

When I listed the eMedals piece i did not mean that it was exactly the same as the one shown earlier in the thread

i did mean that the piece is the same model from the Napoleon period

 

Graf

Hi Graf

I know what you meant just glade you posted that better pictured example for others to see.

A different conclusion on post 34, unfortunately the black & white scan is not very sharp.

 

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ID: 38   Posted

I'll bet my bottom dollar that it's the same example. It's been slightly repaired and the missing hilt and cross is from manual editing for the catalogue (from which auction is it if I might ask?). In the time it seems it lost some enamel on the swords.

swosnap2.jpg.2f2bd5ca09af22fef2a9b9bfe0a5ad21.jpg.08f238f2c9d3f4ef294c1b2ddac402dd.jpg

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ID: 39   Posted

 

I'll bet my bottom dollar that it's the same example. It's been slightly repaired and the missing hilt and cross is from manual editing for the catalogue (from which auction is it if I might ask?). In the time it seems it lost some enamel on the swords.

swosnap2.jpg.2f2bd5ca09af22fef2a9b9bfe0a5ad21.jpg.08f238f2c9d3f4ef294c1b2ddac402dd.jpg

Hi Christian

Thank you for pointing out the striking similarities in the enamel however it is a coincidence. The picture came from Graf Klenau 1978 Orders guide book without Germany. Interesting is that the same badge came up for Auction in a benemerenti.de about 2 years ago also missing the hilt.

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ID: 40   Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, Yankee said:

Hi Christian

Thank you for pointing out the striking similarities in the enamel however it is a coincidence. The picture came from Graf Klenau 1978 Orders guide book without Germany. Interesting is that the same badge came up for Auction in a benemerenti.de about 2 years ago also missing the hilt.

Hi Yankee. 

I am not sure how what you write contradicts Christian's observation. Could you, perhaps, expand, please?

It is not just the enamel damage which Christian has ringed which is the same, I can spot perhaps five or six other commonalities, including the 'spot' under the right hilt, which is evident in the earlier black & white photo (but is covered by the red ring in Christian's comparison).

I would be interested in hearing your further thoughts.

Edited by Trooper_D

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ID: 41   Posted

1 hour ago, Trooper_D said:

Hi Yankee. 

I am not sure how what you write contradicts Christian's observation. Could you, perhaps, expand, please?

It is not just the enamel damage which Christian has ringed which is the same, I can spot perhaps five or six other commonalities, including the 'spot' under the right hilt, which is evident in the earlier black & white photo (but is covered by the red ring in Christian's comparison).

I would be interested in hearing your further thoughts.

Hi Trooper_D

Refer you to EUROPAISCHE ORDEN AB 1700 KATALOG OHNE DEUTSCHLAND

ARNHAND GRAF KLENAU.

That same piece was recently in the Benimerenti Auction #9 lot 550.

One can clearly observe the left hilt is missing from both images.

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ID: 42   Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Yankee said:

Hi Trooper_D

Refer you to EUROPAISCHE ORDEN AB 1700 KATALOG OHNE DEUTSCHLAND

ARNHAND GRAF KLENAU.

That same piece was recently in the Benimerenti Auction #9 lot 550.

One can clearly observe the left hilt is missing from both images.

Thanks for this reference, Yankee, which is most helpful.

I am not sure that the Benemerenti catalogues are on line so I wonder if anyone might have a scan they could post, please? [edited to add: I have now discover that they are online and I have now downloaded the catalogue for auction #9].

Edited by Trooper_D

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ID: 43   Posted

Thanks for the references. I still think it's the same and had some time at the workshop, hinge and hilt fixed.

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ID: 44   Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Christian J said:

Thanks for the references. I still think it's the same and had some time at the workshop, hinge and hilt fixed.

I'm certain of it, Christian. Even though the image in the auction catalogue isn't the best, by exaggerating the tones, it is possible to see most of the enamel damage on the eMedals example, as is apparent in the attached comparison. This is most obvious on the 'S' on its side shaped edge of the repair work on the upper right arm of the cross.

2017-05-18_15-33-46b.jpg

Edited by Trooper_D

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ID: 45   Posted

1 hour ago, Trooper_D said:

I'm certain of it, Christian. Even though the image in the auction catalogue isn't the best, by exaggerating the tones, it is possible to see most of the enamel damage on the eMedals example, as is apparent in the attached comparison. This is most obvious on the 'S' on its side shaped edge of the repair work on the upper right arm of the cross.

2017-05-18_15-33-46b.jpg

Gentlemen to fabricate the missing parts to an exact match and not showing the slightest sign of restoration repair on something so small and delicate including the hinge would be the work of a genius. Good collecting always.

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ID: 46   Posted

Just occur to myself to come across two of these early models in such close proximity of being offered for sale and not seeing any in decades prior is odd.  Maybe one of a kind and you guys are correct?  Any collectors have images to share of the very early type?

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ID: 47   Posted (edited)

Hi

With a risk to put oil into the fire Do not forget that the main occupation of the owner of eMedals has jeweler

He run successful jewellery business before started selling Military stuff

I also found very similar repair patterns in the enamel especially on the top of the right arm on the picture #44

it cannot be coincidence such identical repair on two extremely rare models surfacing on the market in a very short time

I might be wrong

I have seen over the years some items being sold and re-sold over and over aging with signs of small or big improvements

 

Here is another early model sold by eMedals recently after being offered not long ago by a German dealer

Those are the pictures from the German dealer site, which i was lucky to copy before the Order was sold and then appeared on eMedals site ..and sold again.

 

 

4901_2.jpg

4901_6.jpg

4901_4.jpg

4901.jpg

4901_5.jpg

Here are the pictures of this Model  re-sold by eMedals

as    A Napoleonic Period Swedish Order of the Sword in Gold c.1815 -

 

b_0548.jpg

b_0550.jpg

b_0552.jpg

b_0553.jpg

Edited by Graf

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ID: 48   Posted

I can only say that although the evidence seems overwhelming, I myself have been fooled before...

Take a look at these two Dannebrog crosses - one belongs to the Danish Chapter of the Orders, the other was offered for sale at Künker in 2015.

At the time of the auction I asked the Chapter if their specimen was still in their possession and the answer was yes...

So apparently two different crosses despite the similarities... :o

SK_ChrVIII.jpg

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ID: 49   Posted

17 hours ago, Graf said:

Hi

With a risk to put oil into the fire Do not forget that the main occupation of the owner of eMedals has jeweler

He run successful jewellery business before started selling Military stuff

I also found very similar repair patterns in the enamel especially on the top of the right arm on the picture #44

it cannot be coincidence such identical repair on two extremely rare models surfacing on the market in a very short time

I might be wrong

I have seen over the years some items being sold and re-sold over and over aging with signs of small or big improvements

 

Here is another early model sold by eMedals recently after being offered not long ago by a German dealer

Those are the pictures from the German dealer site, which i was lucky to copy before the Order was sold and then appeared on eMedals site ..and sold again.

 

 

4901_2.jpg

4901_6.jpg

4901_4.jpg

4901.jpg

4901_5.jpg

Here are the pictures of this Model  re-sold by eMedals

as    A Napoleonic Period Swedish Order of the Sword in Gold c.1815 -

 

b_0548.jpg

b_0550.jpg

b_0552.jpg

b_0553.jpg

That is sobering, flip side is now we know where to take our damaged pieces for fine restoration. If being conducted by dealer should be mentioned as such in description. An excellent restoration job should have no impact on price. I've seen to my horror enamel jobs botched, better it was never touched and left in its natural decayed state or give the item into the hands of an expert to restore as when issued. What perplexes me is If we assume that early Sword has been restored why than partially. Why allow that horrible clearly visible enamel to remain that can be easily fixed to its former glory at a fraction of the price of fabrication.  Remember white is the cheapest and easiest of all enamel restoration. 

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ID: 50   Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Great Dane said:

So apparently two different crosses despite the similarities... :o

What a thought-provoking example, Great Dane.

I suppose I can persuade myself to see differences between the two crosses but, they are so alike (and I think I can see one or two additional similarities you didn't highlight), is it possible that the Chapter of the Orders misunderstand your query?

Assuming for the moment that they didn't, how can we account for two crosses with almost identical flaws and dings? Do we think that they are flaws in the manufacturing process which are common to all crosses produced at the time, perhaps?

Edited by Trooper_D

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