Chris Boonzaier

By the Numbers.... Numbered helmet covers.....

148 posts in this topic

Hello Chip!

Thank you for your uniform declarations! I´m always be amazed, that you´ve got a shoulder strap for every single branch of service! But now to your questions. Here we go:

Res.Radf.Kp.78: First belonged to the Radf.Btl.1. (2nd.Inf.Radf.Brig.), left this Btl. in sept. 1918 to become a MGK in the Radf.Btl.7. It became demobilized in Jg.Btl.10

Radf.Kp.201: First belonged to the 201.Inf.Div., later Heeresgruppe Kronprinz Rupprecht, then 4.Armee, then, 17.Armee. It became demobilzed in Jg.Btl.2

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Andreas,

Do you think there is a chance that this 201 strap could be the Gebirgs-MG-Abt. Nr.201? I'm wondering if the mountain MG units wore graugruen?

Chip

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Hi Chip!

I don´t think so. Please have a look at Kraus.

He wrotes, that Geb.MG.Abtl. the grey-green uniforms of the MG-Abtl. Those shoulder-straps had red pipings (bavarians green).

Bikers instead had Jäger uniforms with green pipings

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Andreas,

I know that the GMGA had the uuniforms of the MGA, but there was a point at which the MGA units dropped the special uniforms, so I am assuming that the GMGA did the same.

Chip

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ID: 55   Posted (edited)

I haven´t heard about that, Chip. Are you sure, that a small unit like this could have changed their uniforms during the war?

Edited by The Prussian

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Andreas,

Kraus says that with the new uniform regulations of 1915/16 that the special unforms of the MG-Abteilungen were discontinued. From then on, the detachments should wear the unform of the unit they are assigned to, that is, an infantry or cavalry tunic. So, essentially, from that point, graugrün uniforms were no longer being officially worn.

Chip

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I think Jäger Zu Pferde continued to wear gray-green but not 100% certain. I've seen gray-green jäger blusen

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Andreas,

Kraus says that with the new uniform regulations of 1915/16 that the special unforms of the MG-Abteilungen were discontinued. From then on, the detachments should wear the unform of the unit they are assigned to, that is, an infantry or cavalry tunic. So, essentially, from that point, graugrün uniforms were no longer being officially worn.

Chip

Chip,

That´s right for MG-Abtl., but NOT for Geb.NG-Abtl.! Kraus writes, from dec.8, 1915 the reygreen uniforms had to be continued to wear. ( > 2. Gebirgs-MG-Formationen - Felduniform)

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Andreas,

So, then you are saying that there should be a M1915 graugrün shoulder strap with red unit number and red piping for the GMGA? I have never seen such a thing or heard it described. Do you feel certain that the piping would not have been green?

Chip

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Hi Chip!

Like Kraus said:

C.IV Maschinengewehr-Truppen

Felduniform M1907: "Feldrock. In Preußen graugrün. Alle Vorstöße ponceaurot"

Neuuniformierung 1915/16: "... fiel die besondere Uniform der MG-Abteilungen fort Die Abteilungen sollten die Uniform desjenigen Truppenteils anlegen, dem sie angegliedert waren."

2. Gebirgs-MG-Formationen

Felduniform: Von der Abschaffung der graugrünen MG-Uniformen wurden die Gebirgs-Abteilungen nicht betroffen..."

28.5.1915: The Geb.MG.Abt. were set-up in may 1915. Then they wore the uniforms of the regular uniforms of the MG-Abtl. (greygreen shoulder-straps, red pipings). The bavarians had fieldgrey shoulder-straps, light-green pipings.). (2.9.1915 Württembeg ; Bavaria wore the fieldgrey uniforms, because they didn´t know the grey.-green uniforms)

21.9.1915: Abolition of the greygreen uniforms for MG-Abt, BUT NOT for mountain troops!

So every Geb.MG.Abt. had red-piped, greygreen shoulder straps. To me it sounds, like the Geb.MG.Abt. didn´t have the M1915 Bluse, but only the Waffenock. Please check your photos

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ID: 63   Posted (edited)

Here are some of my collection:

NOTE picture of Inf.Rgt.124. The lieutenant in the middle of the photo is Erwin Rommel as a platoon-leader!!!

Edited by The Prussian

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ID: 64   Posted (edited)

Originally identified as FAR 19: This is really... Kgl. Sächs. 2. Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.19

Edited by IrishGunner

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Hi IrishGunner!

Are you sure with FAR19?

The lying man has a pre-war uniform

They all have a carbine (mounted troops)

Most of them are much older than the left and the right one

Maybe there is a brass number upon the lying mens shoulder strap, so we have the Res.Feldart.Rgt.19

But why does the lying man wearing saxon cuffs???

Because of they are quite old, I assume it is an ammo column

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Andy, good questions. I went with FAR 19 since there is not an "R" on the pickelhaube cover with the 19. I am a bit confused as to why the mixture of uniforms and a reserve unit or a munitions column would make sense... Perhaps a munitions column for FAR 19? Didn't artillery firing batteries also have the carbine?

Here's a shot of the shoulder strap of the old guy lying in front... Looks like embroidery to me...not metal.

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Andy, good questions. I went with FAR 19 since there is not an "R" on the pickelhaube cover with the 19. I am a bit confused as to why the mixture of uniforms and a reserve unit or a munitions column would make sense... Perhaps a munitions column for FAR 19? Didn't artillery firing batteries also have the carbine?

Here's a shot of the shoulder strap of the old guy lying in front... Looks like embroidery to me...not metal.

Slontcha IrishGunner!

Well, so it´s not reserve. BUT, why does he have saxon shoulder boards and saxon cuffs?????

The Feldart.Rgt.19 came from Erfurt (XI.AK)

If the Ammo colums were mounted, thex had carbines too.

But this night I won´t get any sleep because of the saxon-question! :whistle:

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ID: 69   Posted (edited)

Andy, it's a good question. Interesting, Fußartillerie Regt. 19 is.... Kgl. Sächs. 2. Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.19 from Dresden

FuAR 19 wore a green Waffenrock with red collar and Sachsen cuffs with "squared" green straps w/ red piping w/ exploding bomb w/ red 19.

Our lazy guy in front could be lost from FuAR 19...

And now that I zoom more on the shoulder straps of our EK2 heroes in the back... I see that there is only a "19" and no exploding bomb. They also look to be piped on the edge in a lighter color. They would match the fact that on the first feldgrau uniforms the Fußartillerie shoulder straps were field gray with white piping and red unit numbers (thanks to Chip from another past thread!).

So... Here it now looks like we have a bunch of old guys from Kgl. Sächs. 2. Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr.19

You can sleep easy now Andy! :cheers:

(PS: Rick Research's words of advice to never collect foot artillery are ringing in my head! :P )

Edited by IrishGunner

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That makes sense, but I don´t understand, why they created a wrong shoulder strap??? The 19 with a bomb can´t be squared ones! Never! But here is the proof...

I know why Rick said, "never collect foot artillery"... Here is a list of those unites, set-up by Fott-artillery regiment 19:

Peace formation:

2. Sächs. Fußart.Rgt.Nr.19

Regiments:

Fußart.Rgt.19

Res.Fußart.Rgt.19

Independent bataillons:

58, 64, 96, 104, 105, 107, 160, 404, Landwehr 19, Landwehr 67, Ersatz 19, Landsturm XII.AK

Independent batteries:

123, 298, 440-442, 494, 508, 567, 587, 625, 685, 695, 740, 753, 788, 789, 1015

Other:

Park-Kompanie Res.19, , Landwehr 19, 45, 115, 142, Lichtmeßtrupp 44, Schallmeßtrupp 23, 110

Maybe we have on of the other 19ers???

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That makes sense, but I don´t understand, why they created a wrong shoulder strap??? The 19 with a bomb can´t be squared ones! Never! But here is the proof...

Well, never say "never".

According to the chart on Kaiser's Bunker; "Nr. 19 wore a green Waffenrock with Ponceau red collar and Sachsen (Saxon) cuffs with "squared" green straps w/ red piping w/ exploding bomb w/ red 19"

I always thought Tony's Kaiser's Bunker site was a reliable source...

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/New/af0.htm

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Oh, stupid me... Give me animal-names, hit me, beat me, or give me water to drink...

Of course! Saxon Foot-artillery had saxon cuffs and an exploding bomb!

The lying man is identified!

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Andy, without your questioning the shoulder straps, I would have continued calling these guys FAR 19! Only name I can hit you with is..."helpful"! I have a lot to learn about "my" artillery guys... Thanks for the great back and forth.

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Here's a "big" number... Reserve Feld-Artillerie-Regiment Nr.239

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