Uncategorised Historical inaccuracies

[NickLangley]

ITV has started broadcasting "Endeavour", the prequel to the Inspector Morse series, which follows the eponymous detective's early years with the Oxford City Police.

Every mistake in the book: white shirts; "custodian" helmets with riot fittings, old Met Police tunics and one extra wearing what looked like trainers. Never mind detectives from a small(ish) provincial city force who talk like wannabe members of the Flying Squad ... governor.

The producers have obviously spent a small fortune on recreating the 1960s and then spoil it for the pedants.

Edited April 16, 2013 by NickLangley

[Robin Lumsden]

Nick.

They should hire you for the advisory team !!

How right you are.

[conner395]

Nick.

They should hire you for the advisory team !!

How right you are.

- I know the feeling. Hence my pride in the fact that "Hamish MacBeth" was fairly spot-on (even down to some of my patches and historical photos being on show in his office!) - one of my mates was Section Sgt at Kyle of LOchalsh (filming was nearby there, at Plockton) at that time and he "consulted" me when necessary!

Nick's very valid point is why my family refuse to watch any police-related TV drama or film with me around - I am forever jumping up and down shouting "that's wrong" ""it should be...." "they didn't have them back then" etc.

But what do we know? We were only policemen.

Dave

[Mervyn Mitton]

Isn't everyone above Sgt. called 'Guv " ?

[Dave Wilkinson]

Isn't everyone above Sgt. called 'Guv " ?

Err.......No. Not even in the Metropolitan Police!

[219PG]

Yes Merv Inspectors & above always called 'Guv' in the Met although 'Boss' seems to have crept in these day's!!

[Robin Lumsden]

We had a new DCC who arrived up north from down south.

He left us all dumbfounded when he introduced himself on his first day with the instruction ............ "Just call me Dave".

Needless to say, that was one instruction none of us followed.

Pardon my ignorance, but what do they call FEMALE Inspectors and upwards in the Met ?? (Answers on a postcard ................)

Edited April 17, 2013 by Robin Lumsden

[219PG]

Maam, Guv or Boss - The first name thing makes me cringe but you do hear it - I dread to think what would have happened if I had called my old relief Inspector 'George' !!!!!

[Robin Lumsden]

Many thanks.

When I joined the job, if you called your sergeant by his first name ........................ even off duty ....................... you risked instant death.

[NickLangley]

I'm willing to let them off with words of advice on matters of detail, but when it comes to actors with helmets that are several sizes too big then it's chuck the book at them time. Only one thing worse - actors who wear a military beret like a bloomin' schoolgirl.

This was done for comic effect. Too many actors think this is how it should look

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.britmovie.co.uk/wp-content/images/films/films-1962-on-the-beat.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.britmovie.co.uk/films/On-the-Beat_1962&h=275&w=250&sz=44&tbnid=DghB1I5ORe2FfM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=89&zoom=1&usg=__qnnIWWYgB6tuIAZ0XZ7F1FROO-c=&docid=utXHQjZ_88y5JM&sa=X&ei=CrVvUbTzK-et0QW37YDABw&ved=0CFsQ9QEwBA&dur=571

Edited April 18, 2013 by NickLangley

[David B 1812]

Whilst what I am about to describe is not really an "historic inaccuracy", and not to do with the Police in the U.K.,

it IS police related, and it is an INACCURATE description, in my opinion, and it IS an inaccuracy which the makers

of U.S. TV and Films on the subject of the POLICE make over and over and over.............

This last week, after the Boston Bombing and the aftermath, a particular policeman was injured or wounded, in one

way or another (the details are not important), and the U.S. television and other reports described him as being......

"....... a three year VETERAN of the Boston police force........"

I beg your pardon? Since when does being a policeman for 3 years make one a "veteran"? I have also heard of

five and eight year "veterans" and so on................. what a load of crap. It is as bad as Americans saluting each

other without any headwear on...............

The dictionary describes a "VETERAN" as:

"grown OLD in service, esp. in armed forces"; experienced by LONG practice";

And, please believe me, there is NO way that someone who has done anything for only 3 years,

can be properly described as a "veteran". What do Americans then call a man who has been in the

police force, or army, or whatever, for 25 or 30 years, I wonder............?

I have been working for 43 years............ I wonder,............. am I a veteran yet?????

Or was I a "veteran" when I was 23 years of age, and had been working for three years??

Does this mean that my motor vehicle which was made in 2010, and now gets sold in 2013, and is

therefore THREE years old, can be sold and advertised as a "veteran" car.............? Hmmmmm ....????

Do Americans even KNOW the proper meaning of the word: " Veteran " ??????

========================================================================

[Tom King]

Guv, Guv'nor and Boss seem to be the main terminology in use in the Met today for Inspectors and above. Sir and Ma'am are also still used as the formal address.

As for veteran, it is used/misused a lot more in the US than in the UK. However the term is not just related to length of service. For instance soldiers who have survived a particular campaign or war no matter how long they fought could be considered veterans of that campaign or war, especially wars or battles where life expectancy was limited.

[NickLangley]

The producers of the Endeavour series seem to have got their act together after last week's pilot episode and the uniforms are now pretty much spot on. However there is a distinct lack of salutes from Pcs in the presence of a Chief Super'.

And a question for the old sweats. Helmet chinstrap: under the chin or grazing the bottom lip?

[David B 1812]

Yes, Tom, I agree with you that one could / can be, say, a "Veteran" of the Vietnam War,

or a Veteran of the Korean War - where these may have only involved service of a year

or three.

BUT in the context of my message, above, and in terms of the strict dictionary definition,

I STILL do not accept that a policeman of any police force who has only three years of

experience, can possibly be a "veteran"

[Spasm]

David

It seems to be a way that the US police, and media, distinguish between a 'rookie' and an experienced police officer. In some cases rookies turn into 'veterans' very quickly depending on their place of work and what they've been through. The norm for becoming experienced seems to be about 5 years in the US Police Force but if an officer is called a veteran with only 3 years it portrays that he/she has had a great deal of experience in a shorter period. He/she is therefore considered to have 'been round the block a few times' and a better/more experienced officer than the average.

One officer explained it as "Depends on how many times you've vomited at crime scenes" - makes sense to me

Spaz

Edited April 22, 2013 by Spasm

[Mervyn Mitton]

I was actually joking when I said 'wasn't everyone called guv !' Yes, the expression was used - but in my day not that often.

With regard to saluting officers - we are not automatons and Police only salute their own officers. The army are ignored unless it is

a ceremonial occasion. With the Metropolitan Police - and remember we started it all - it was always a pleasure to bump into an

officer in the street and give them a salute. Their responses were usually - in this order - surprise, pleasure, confusion and a fumbling

whilst they tried to return the salute. Which is why we saluted them...................

Whilst on this subject - many Forces follow the Met. and have a short arm movement to bring the palm to the brim of the helmet. We

worked out , years ago, that doing military stiff armed salutes is not practical in a crowded place. However, many Forces still do the Army

salute - which proves that they are not really in line with our traditions.

If that doesn't get a response - then nothing will ? Mervyn

[219PG]

On my first ever beat in 1976 I passed my Divisional Inspector and didn't salute this resulted in a pocket book caution - I remember being up town on aid and saluting officers as it was expected - the last time I saluted was on anti robbery patrol along the South Bank by Tower Bridge when I spotted the then Commissioner Sir Ian Blair and his bag carrier waiting to go into the Greater London Authority building for a meeting with the mayor. He was in shirt sleeve order and obviously didn't want to be spotted but being old school I went over to him and gave the usual 'all correct' & saluted.

[Dave Wilkinson]

The producers of the Endeavour series seem to have got their act together after last week's pilot episode and the uniforms are now pretty much spot on. However there is a distinct lack of salutes from Pcs in the presence of a Chief Super'.

And a question for the old sweats. Helmet chinstrap: under the chin or grazing the bottom lip?

I must confess that I have long since stopped watching police related dramas, as I simply get "wound up" by the inaccuracies such as those mentioned here. Hence I've not seen any of the "Endeavour" episodes. However, if they are suggesting as part of the script that there was an officer of Chief Superintendent rank in the Oxford City Police then that is something else they have wrong! I've just looked at a copy of the Police & Constabulary Almanac for 1968 (the force amalgamated on the 1st April) and the Oxford City Police is shown as having a Deputy Chief Constable (below CC) with the rank of Superintendent. To be accurate he was Superintendent Leonard North. Perhaps the lack of salutes has something to do with the fact that he did not exist?

Edited April 23, 2013 by Dave Wilkinson

[NickLangley]

Dave, you had me worried for a moment in case I had mis-identified the senior uniform officer. A quick check confims a crown and a pip on his shoulder.

[Dave Wilkinson]

Dave, you had me worried for a moment in case I had mis-identified the senior uniform officer. A quick check confims a crown and a pip on his shoulder.

Nick,

If he had a Crown and a bath star on his shoulder then he would (in those days) be a Superintendent Grade 1. A Chief Superintendent would have a Crown above two bath stars and a Superintendent Grade 2 would have a single Crown.

The Deputy Chief Constable of Oxford would have been a Superintendent Grade 1. So, if what you say is correct then they have by accident or design got it right, certainly insofar as his rank insignia is concerned. However, if he is being referred to as a Chief Superintendent then alas, they still have it wrong! Oxford had (at the time of the amalgamation) two Supts. One was the DCC (Supt. Grade 1) and the other was the Supt. of the Cowley Div. who was a Supt. Grade 2.

The rank markings for Superintending ranks changed (I think) in the early 1970's to that which we know today in consequence of the two separate grades for Superintendent being abolished. When I say this I am referring to provincial forces in England & Wales. I do know that in Scotland they had (at one time) one or two unusual ranks which were not used south of the border That also applies of course to MPD ,City of London and Northern Ireland who also retained a degree of individuality in respect of their rank system.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Dave Wilkinson

[NickLangley]

Dave, many thanks I have learned something.

[peter monahan]

Very informative - thanks to all who contributed. More ammunition for the next time I watch Ins. Morris with Mom and Dad, who are addicted to BBC television series. Also why my folks won't watch war movies with me!

On the accuracy thing, Toronto ['the centre of the universe', ask any Torontonian]has for weeks now had posters on the subway, banners on lamp posts and full page ads in the daily papers advertising tomorrow's huge military parade to commemorate the 200th anniversary of US troops coming ashore and burning down much of the town. Hence our burning the White House in 1814, by the way. We was provoked!

I only looked carefully at the poster this week and the three figures it depicts. The British grenadier is ok. The US soldier is wearing a BRITISH shako, just like the grenadier's and the 15 year old Native kid has on fringed buckskin pants! And that, apparently is as good as the Toronto Historical Board can do, because clearly none of the hundreds of re-enactors and historians in Ontario were available for consultation.

And in a similar vein, the new visitor's centre at Chrysler's Farm battlefield has three life sized cut out figures out front, uniformed as Canadian soldiers from 1814. One is meant to represent the Voltigeurs Canadien, a unit from Lower Canada [Quebec] but the uniform is that of one of NAPOLEON's voltigeurs. Presumably what you get if you google the word and go with the very first site you come to. And that park is run by Parks Canada, our national historic body! Arghhh!

[PeterBHC]

You are right. Americans do not use the term veteran correctly. Someone who has served 60 days or more (and has not been dishonourably discharged) is entitled to "Veterans Benefits"; hence there are now around 20 million people claiming such benefits.

Whilst what I am about to describe is not really an "historic inaccuracy", and not to do with the Police in the U.K.,

it IS police related, and it is an INACCURATE description, in my opinion, and it IS an inaccuracy which the makers

of U.S. TV and Films on the subject of the POLICE make over and over and over.............

This last week, after the Boston Bombing and the aftermath, a particular policeman was injured or wounded, in one

way or another (the details are not important), and the U.S. television and other reports described him as being......

"....... a three year VETERAN of the Boston police force........"

I beg your pardon? Since when does being a policeman for 3 years make one a "veteran"? I have also heard of

five and eight year "veterans" and so on................. what a load of crap. It is as bad as Americans saluting each

other without any headwear on...............

The dictionary describes a "VETERAN" as:

"grown OLD in service, esp. in armed forces"; experienced by LONG practice";

And, please believe me, there is NO way that someone who has done anything for only 3 years,

can be properly described as a "veteran". What do Americans then call a man who has been in the

police force, or army, or whatever, for 25 or 30 years, I wonder............?

I have been working for 43 years............ I wonder,............. am I a veteran yet?????

Or was I a "veteran" when I was 23 years of age, and had been working for three years??

Does this mean that my motor vehicle which was made in 2010, and now gets sold in 2013, and is

therefore THREE years old, can be sold and advertised as a "veteran" car.............? Hmmmmm ....????

Do Americans even KNOW the proper meaning of the word: " Veteran " ??????

========================================================================

[David B 1812]

Dear Peter BHC

Ah!! At last - someone who sees, and understands my point.

Thank you.

Best wishes,

David B

[NickLangley]

Carefull!!! Before you know it you'll be saying the Americans hand out medals like Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLSIU9BG41U