JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Very interesting bar Obviously we are talking about participant of the Boxer Rebellion punitive expedition Unfortunately only obverse photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 Auction-house description of the bar Nachlass Marine-Generalarzt Dr. Oskar Nenninger Große elfteilige Ordensspange. Preußen: Roter-Adler-Orden, Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Krone; DA-Kreuz für 25 Dienstjahre der Offiziere; Deutsches Reich: China-Denkmünze für Kämpfer, 1901; Südwestafrika- Denkmünze für Nichtkämpfer, 1907; Preußen: Zentenarmedaille, 1897; Türkei: Goldene Liyakatmedaille; Silberne Imtiyazmedaille; China: Orden vom goldenen Drachen. An Quernadel. Große fünfteilige Ordensspange. Preußen: Roter-Adler-Orden, Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Krone; DA-Kreuz für 25 Dienstjahre der Offiziere; Deutsches Reich: China-Denkmünze für Kämpfer, 1901; Südwestafrika-Denkmünze für Nichtkämpfer, 1907; Preußen: Zentenarmedaille, 1897. An Quernadel. Türkei: Medjidie-Orden, 3. Klasse. Silber, mit silbervergoldetem emaillierten Medaillon, an Halsband mit Metallschließe, in rotem Samtetui (defekter Verschluss) mit Etikett des Juweliers Haronatchi, Konstantinopel. Türkei: Medjidie-Orden, 5. Klasse. Silber, mit silbervergoldetem Medaillon, an Band, in rotem Samtetui. China: Orden des doppelten Drachen, 2. Modell, 3. Grad. Silber, mit emailliertem Medaillon und Saphierzentrum, an Band (ersetzt) mit Messingschließe, in Holzetui (Seidenüberzug schadhaft). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 Close-up`s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 Cavalier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Is that not his Chinese Golden Commemorative Medal on his bar? the CDIII1 was a neck order. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 Is that not his Chinese Golden Commemorative Medal on his bar? Sorry Glenn, what is this "Chinese Golden Commemorative Medal"?the CDIII1 was a neck order. Sorry, what is "CDIII1"? Chinese dragon third class first grade? Actually the auction description is quite strange "2. Modell, 3. Grad." 2 type, 3rd grade? Obviously these guys forget that Double Dragon had five classes. In turn three higher classes were divided into 3 grades. First class with three grades Second class with three grades Third class with three grades Forth class (for soldiers - no grades) Firth class ( for businessman - no grades) The strangest thing is that the badge we see in the bar has form of 1st and 2nd class badges (not the form of the 3rd class badge which is indeed neck order as you mentioned ), but instead of the stone in the middle we see two hieroglyphs ... Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Nick, Sorry Glenn, what is this "Chinese Golden Commemorative Medal"? that is the description in the Stammliste des Marine-Sanitäts-Offizierkorps of 1906: CgM: chinesische goldene Erinnerungsmedaille. The CDIII1 is a Double Dragon Third Class, 1st Grade. See also this photograph here of a Saxon NCO wearing what was gazetted as a Chinese Silver Merit Medal in the Saxon Militär-Verordnungsblatt for comparison: http://www.flickr.com/photos/paranoid_womb/7217297280/ Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 First of all - great photo Glenn! that is the description in the Stammliste des Marine-Sanitäts-Offizierkorps of 1906: CgM: chinesische goldene Erinnerungsmedaille. Aha! Now I understand. That's why you think that this strange looking double dragon is not a double dragon, but this mysterious goldene Erinnerungsmedaille. Do you have any additional info about these chinese Erinnerungsmedaille?The CDIII1 is a Double Dragon Third Class, 1st Grade. One thing is for sure - this badge/medal in the bar has nothing to do with 3rd class 1st grade order of Double Dragon Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 The Chinese medal is a Medal for Meritorious Deeds and Achievements, a Qing Dynasty decoration, NOT an Order of the Double Dragon. The 29 November 2012 Morton and Eden auction had an example (image left). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 (edited) The Chinese medal is a Medal for Meritorious Deeds and Achievements, a Qing Dynasty decoration, NOT an Order of the Double Dragon. Yep. I realize this ... now P.S. Any info about number of classes and statute? P.P.S. Blame auction-house, not me Edited May 6, 2013 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Here are the Order of the Double Dragon Fifth Class badges - First Type (1882-1901) and Second Type (1902-1912). Images from Morton & Eden. The original 1882 Statutes specified the ribbon length for the First Type Fourth and Fifth Class as "five cun" in length (approx. 15 cm). So this might suggest either a very long breast ribbon or a very short neck ribbon! Note the specimen in the image is on an unofficial ribbon. The Second Type Fourth and Fifth Classes were breast badges. http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-11630-0-04585700-1367872170.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_05_2013/post-11630-0-61488400-1367872876.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 (edited) Don't have any information on the Merit Medal I'm afraid. But believe these were only awarded in one class. Interestingly as an aside, the Berlin Legation Medal was awarded in two classes - silver and gold (gilt). The Qing medals and decorations are even more obscure than the subsequent Warlord period ones. Edited May 6, 2013 by drclaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 (edited) Yep. Saw these too .. From the house of exemplary stout drinker So "Medal for Meritorious Deeds and Achievements" had only one class. But Glenn's german sources (as far as I understand) mentioned gold and silver versions. Edited May 6, 2013 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 Nick, just checked L.J. Trost's "Die Ritter- und Verdienstorden des XIX. Jahrhunderts" published in 1910. It states that the Verdienstmedaille (Kung-p'ai) was awarded to both men and women and was awarded in four classes: 1st Class in Gold 2nd Class in Gold 1st Class in Silver 2nd Class in Silver The ribbon is described as a light blue moiré patterned ribbon with a rosette for the 1st Class awards. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 Thank's a lot for this info Glenn! Best regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 (edited) Nick, Just to add to the last posting: the Deutsche Ordens-Almanach of 1908/1909 lists both the Chinese Erinnerungsmedaille and the Verdienstmedaille. It would appear that both were very similar in design. Regards Glenn Edited May 6, 2013 by Glenn J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 6, 2013 Author Share Posted May 6, 2013 Ok. Let me get this straight. We are dealing with two medals that have very similar design. In turn both medals were designed after sash badges for 1st and 2nd classes of the Order of Double Dragons. One medal is Verdienstmedaille (Medal for Meritorious Deeds and Achievements) Number of classes (if there are any) and ribbon color are not known (?) The other medal is Erinnerungsmedaille (Commemorative Medal) It has four (!!!) classes and light blue ribbon. --------------------------------------- In turn my personal optische Wahrnehmung tells me, that in post #4 (Erinnerungsmedaille) and in post # 11 (Verdienstmedaille) we observe one and the same medal (only manufacturers are different). Nein? Sincerely yours, ein verworrener Kopf :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted May 6, 2013 Share Posted May 6, 2013 (edited) Here's another example owned by Emmanuel. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/45143-unknown-imperial-era-chinese-order-or-medal/ The ribbon is dark blue moire silk, same as the two examples above. The Chinese characters read "Gong Pai" or "Merit Badge" Note Paul's comments: "several varieties exist, probably manufactured after 1900". As Nick points out, the design is clearly inspired by the sash badges of the Second Type First and Second Class Double Dragon. Given these were awarded after 1902, it's likely the Merit Badge was awarded after then. Of course the reverse argument might equally apply! It would seem that the "Verdienstmedaille" (Kung Pai) mentioned by Trost is this same badge going from the name and the colour of the ribbon. The reference to Four Classes is interesting. It could just be tarnish but the two examples above appear to be gilded while Emmanuel's example is a very clean looking silver. However none of the three examples we've seen have a rosette so if Trost is correct, these are Gold Second Class and Silver Second Class awards. Edited May 6, 2013 by drclaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 Here's another example owned by Emmanuel. Same medal again! Different manufacturer Same ribbon, same form of the badge, same enamel shades (note that even dark blue enamel on the perimeter of central medallion is still there) same hieroglyphs and same material - silver (or Silber if you like auction-house description ) It would seem that the "Verdienstmedaille" (Kung Pai) mentioned by Trost is this same badge going from the name and the colour of the ribbon. The reference to Four Classes is interesting. It could just be tarnish but the two examples above appear to be gilded while Emmanuel's example is a very clean looking silver. All three look like silver pieces to me.However none of the three examples we've seen have a rosette so if Trost is correct, these are Gold Second Class and Silver Second Class awards. According to description in the Stammliste des Marine-Sanitäts-Offizierkorps of 1906 our hero Oskar Nenninger was awarded with "CgM: chinesische goldene Erinnerungsmedaille." Goldene !!! Maybe he was awarded with 2nd Class in Gold (ribbon without rosette)? But why then the medal in the bar looks like it was made in silver (for example it is patinated like silver)? One possibility is that "gold" means gold-plated... Or maybe Herr Trost was wrong Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 Not entirely convinced that the Oskar Nenninger specimen is silver as opposed to silver gild. The tarnish could also appear patinated gild. I'm even more convinced that the Morton and Eden example is gilded. I have Double Dragon with very similar patination which when cleaned / polished was gilded. Also see the suspension ring which presumably would have been "buffed" by the ribbon. This appears to be gild. We also have two documentary sources - Trost (1910) and the Stammliste des Marine-Sanitats-Offizierkops (1906) - referring to gold and silver medals. Guess the only way to confirm this would be to clean the medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 Not entirely convinced that the Oskar Nenninger specimen is silver as opposed to silver gild. The tarnish could also appear patinated gild. Yep, patina could be very tricky ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 What really bothers me is the information (thanks again Glenn! ) from Deutsche Ordens-Almanach of 1908/1909 that lists two medals "Erinnerungsmedaille" and the "Verdienstmedaille". Trost in his "Die Ritter- und Verdienstorden des XIX. Jahrhunderts" described "Verdienstmedaille" (four classes, etc..) Stammliste des Marine-Sanitäts-Offizierkorps in 1906 described medal of our Doctor as "CgM: chinesische goldene Erinnerungsmedaille" If this the last description is the right one, then A) we didn't see this mysterious "Verdienstmedaille"/"Medal for Merits"/(Morton&Eden variant)"Medal for Meritorious Deeds and Achievement" and all medals in this thread are "Erinnerungsmedaille"/"Commemorative Medal". B) Verdienstmedaille = Erinnerungsmedaille (is it possible? ) What do you think guys? Scenario A? Scenario B? Or maybe you have scenario C? Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 NIck, strangely, Trost makes no mention of the Erinnerungsmedaille. Here are two scans from the 1908/09 Deutsche Ordens-Almanach. As can be seen, here, like the naval medical officers' list, Dr. Nenninger is shown with the Erinnerungsmedaille. The Verdienstmedaille has the abbreviation ChnVM. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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