For Research 14 place medal bar, lackey ?

[dedehansen]

Hi Gentlemen,

a few weeks ago. I could aquire this medal bar.

I thought that it´s a piece of cake to identify the former owner but

this isn´t so simple as I thought.

Sorry the listinig only in german

OEK

01 Preußen 1837 Kreuz des allgemeinen Ehrenzeichens

02 Preußen 1831 allgemeines Ehrenzeichen 2. Klasse

03 Preußen 1979 Landwehrdienstauszeichnung 2.Klasse ab 1913

04 Preußen 1941/01 Kriegsdenkmünze 1870/71 für Kämpfer

4a Preußen 1941/24 Paris

4b Preußen 1941/21 St.Quentin

4c Preußen 1941/18 Bapaume

4d Preußen 1941/17 an der Hallue

4e Preußen 1941/10 Sedan

05 Preußen 1965/1 Centenarmedaille

06 Sachsen 2221 allg. Ehrenzeichen / Ehrenkreuz

07 Oldenburg 1530 Ehrenkreuz 2. Klasse

08 Baden 0209 silberne Medaille bis 1908

09 Weimar 2373 silberne Anerkennungsmedaille bis 1902

10 Hessen 0886 allgemeines Ehrenzeichen für Verdienst

11 Oesterreich oesterr. Silbernes Verdienstkreuz mit Krone

12 Mecklenburg 1310/1 silberne Medaille Friedrich Franz III. für Militärpersonen

13 Lippe 1236 silberne Verdienstmedaille ab 1905

14 Reuss 2011/2 goldene Verdienstmedaille ab 1902

I´m looking forward for an active discussion.

Regards

Andreas

Edited May 19, 2013 by dedehansen

[redeagleorder]

I always like seeing the BAPAUME bar. A very nice medal bar to a veteran of 1870 and some type of court functionary later.

Congrats!

[sambolini]

Hi,

Very nice, I have always liked these court official type bars. They quite often have the rarely seen mounted verdienst awards from the many German states.

Kind regards,

Sam K.

[Beau Newman]

To the extent it is helpful, I offer a few observations:

There is nothing here that indicates service during WWI so, I would think that he died or retired before or soon after 1914 or simply never got around to updating his group.

The 1870/71 bar combination is unusual. The Hallue/Bapaume/St. Quentin combo usually shows up on groups from the VIII Army Corps or 3rd Cavalry Div., neither of which were at Sedan or Paris. I suppose it is possible that he was assigned to a new Regiment after recovering from a wound but, I'm not sure how the German Army handled this in 1871.

Identification of "enlisted" grade groups is very difficult, even for military personnel.

[dedehansen]

To the extent it is helpful, I offer a few observations:

There is nothing here that indicates service during WWI so, I would think that he died or retired before or soon after 1914 or simply never got around to updating his group.

The 1870/71 bar combination is unusual. The Hallue/Bapaume/St. Quentin combo usually shows up on groups from the VIII Army Corps or 3rd Cavalry Div., neither of which were at Sedan or Paris. I suppose it is possible that he was assigned to a new Regiment after recovering from a wound but, I'm not sure how the German Army handled this in 1871.

Identification of "enlisted" grade groups is very difficult, even for military personnel.

Thanks Beau for Your observations.

I agree with You that he probably didn´t serve in WW 1, because he was to old, date of birth around 1850.

The 1870 / 71 bar combination should fit to the Garde Ulanen Regiment No. 2 if my research was correct, but

may be there are other units too.

I don´t think that he was military personal after war 1870 / 71 because he only got the Landwehrdienstauszeichnung.

It isn´t easy for me because I don´t have access to many award lists or they don´t exist.

The only list I have, is the Hessische Ordensliste from 1892 - 1909 and I have tried to find out the non hessian recipients

for the allgemeines Ehrenzeichen mit Inschrift für Verdienst there are 176. Then I checked them with the Ordensalmanach 04/05

I could only eliminate two. So until know there are 174 plus some awards after 1909 which list I don´t have.

Regards

Andreas

[Dave Danner]

The combination fits the Leib-Garde-Husaren-Regiment and the 2. Garde-Ulanen-Regiment. Both were also entitled to the GRAVELOTTE-ST. PRIVAT clasp, so perhaps your guy arrived at the front after that battle.

[dedehansen]

The combination fits the Leib-Garde-Husaren-Regiment and the 2. Garde-Ulanen-Regiment. Both were also entitled to the GRAVELOTTE-ST. PRIVAT clasp, so perhaps your guy arrived at the front after that battle.

Thanks Dave,

the first thing we know he was a cavalryman.

Closeup from the combat clasp combination

[dedehansen]

May be some futher detailphotos can help

[dedehansen]

Detailphoto

[dedehansen]

here finally the rest

Regards

Andreas

[Paul C]

It may be possible to ID the bar with the DOA 1908/09 but it world be alot of work.

[VtwinVince]

I saw this one over at the Gemeinschaft, a truly outstanding example of a Hoflackei schnalle.

[dedehansen]

It may be possible to ID the bar with the DOA 1908/09 but it world be alot of work.

Hello Paul,

I went through the DOA 04 / 05 with 180 recipients from the AEZ from Hessen and I found

only two of them and those two could be exclused because they got other decorations.

As You certainly know, You had to pay for every decoration to get mentioned in the DOA.

Regards

Andreas

[Ulsterman]

hmmmmmmm.....a Prussian cavalry NCO from an elite Guard regiment who was born @ 1840-50 and lived to at least 1915 by the LS medal and the Austrian Military Merit cross. hmmmmmmmmm....age 65+ in 1915.....I am thinking liveried senior Imperial Butler/Stable-master and yet no foreign awards beyond AH and precious few royal household awards, so not someone Going on tour with the Kaiser. Any chance he is senior Berlin Police or Postal Service?

[Herr General]

Wouldn't you expect foreign medals for a lackey? I have a small medal bar for a Dutch lackey. He served only a few years and got three foreign medals in the process.

[dedehansen]

hmmmmmmm.....a Prussian cavalry NCO from an elite Guard regiment who was born @ 1840-50 and lived to at least 1915 by the LS medal and the Austrian Military Merit cross. hmmmmmmmmm....age 65+ in 1915.....I am thinking liveried senior Imperial Butler/Stable-master and yet no foreign awards beyond AH and precious few royal household awards, so not someone Going on tour with the Kaiser. Any chance he is senior Berlin Police or Postal Service?

Hello Ulsterman,

it is a Landwehrdienstauszeichnung therefore I think that he only was enlisted person.

The Austrian Merit Cross is on the peactime ribbon. In my opinion a bar before 1914.

I´ve checked the Hessen Verdienstmedaille recipients untill 1909, there You can find for example:

Kammerlakai

Leibjäger

Hoflakai

Kammerdiener

Hofkutscher and so on

Regards

Andreas

[Ulsterman]

yes. NCO is enlisted status.

But if he was not a retired OberFeldwebel I will eat my hat.

my guess is stable master.

[Glenn J]

Andreas,

there is no candidate serving in the Prussian Hofstaat in 1914 with that combination of awards. Similarly I could not find a match in 1908, 1911 or 1913. I do, however agree that this combination of awards is typical of a lower ranking official at the court such as a Kammerdiener, Büchsenspanner, Hoffurier etc.

my guess is stable master.

The Stallmeister were somewhat senior in rank, holding either the rank of a counsellor IV or V class which put them in the category of the "Höheren Beamte". As such they were typically festooned with "officer" grade decorations.

Regards

Glenn

[Ulsterman]

Ah! As a loyal Newmarket lad, it is good to know they appreciated the horse culture in the proper way. :)

[dedehansen]

Andreas,

there is no candidate serving in the Prussian Hofstaat in 1914 with that combination of awards. Similarly I could not find a match in 1908, 1911 or 1913. I do, however agree that this combination of awards is typical of a lower ranking official at the court such as a Kammerdiener, Büchsenspanner, Hoffurier etc.

The Stallmeister were somewhat senior in rank, holding either the rank of a counsellor IV or V class which put them in the category of the "Höheren Beamte". As such they were typically festooned with "officer" grade decorations.

Regards

Glenn

Hello Glenn,

I think that his rank wasn´t high enough to be mentioned in the Hofstaat Handbuch.

May be we have found him already. His name is spelled in three different ways.

His name could be Windelband, Windelbandt and Windelbrandt.

With a lot work in Hessen and Baden list, I could confirm the AEZ from Hessen and the VM from Baden.

My german friends could help with Preußen Kreuz zum allg. Ehrenzeichen and AEZ,

Mecklenburg silberne Verdienstmedaille Friedrich Franz III. für Zivilverdienst,

Reuss goldene Verdienstmedaille

Does somebody have access to the list from Sachen, Oldenburg or Weimar and could be

so kind and check the three potential names ?!

Regards

Andreas

[Guest Rick Research]

Congratulations! YOU HAVE FOUND HIM!

Oldenburg Honor Cross 2nd Class: "K.P. Kutscher Windelband" on 18 .01.02 (all living holders of all classes, Oldenburg Hof- und Staatshandbuch 1914)

Pr AEz "Vorreiter zu Berlin Windelband" on 18.01.96 (Prussian Ordensliste 1895 Nachtrag 1)

Pr Krz AEz "Kgl. Kutscher Karl Windelbandt in Berlin" 18.01.08, and crossindexing the AEz above (Prussian Ordensliste 1905 Nachtrag 3)

[Glenn J]

Andreas,

from the rolls of the Oldenburg Honour Cross 2nd Class as quoted by Rick above.

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

BTW-- you do not have to put your name across a medal bar, "spoiling the view" for those of us who Spangen. After today, no Research Gnome will EVER forget who this bar was worn by--or who owns it now!

[Ulsterman]

so, the Royal coachman ?

[dedehansen]

Thanks to Rick Research and Glenn for confirming the Oldenburg award.

BTW-- you do not have to put your name across a medal bar, "spoiling the view" for those of us who Spangen. After today, no Research Gnome will EVER forget who this bar was worn by--or who owns it now!

Sorry, it was not my intent, to spoil the view

and here we have the whole beauty

Regards

Andreas