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Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory - Present Day Market Realities

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On 4-2-2017 at 00:33, Christian Zulus said:

Dear USSR,

the Spassky-Tower and the Red Star on top are too narrow. Can you forward the photograph of your OGI on the COA?

If your OGI is authentic, then it looks like fresh from the stocks of the mint. Did you invest some few bucks into research?

Kind regards

Christian

Here it is. But as you can see, the serial number was altered. I am really curious why this was done.

270296701001748.jpg

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1 hour ago, USSR said:

Here it is. But as you can see, the serial number was altered. I am really curious why this was done.

Hello, 

Interesting. Could you post the reverse, please.

Gantsev Dmitry Feodorovich (1918 - 1968)

2016-08-04_135249.jpg.a70132e3a633cc89eac2b1a60933b9c3.jpg61757434_GancevDmitrFed.jpg.dca714eb2a1c3beef7ea5af0b550f167.jpg

 

Edited by Egorka

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Thanks! A bit weird... :) He wore his award at least once, when his photograph was taken. :) So the mint condition is too minty... And obviously faked number and erasure signs of the old one. 

Did you get it in a group? I am thinking why one would fake a number? If we trust the order it self is genuine, then why bother? Only if to fit a document or a group... 

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I'm very sure it's authentic. Not only because the COA was made by 3 experts (and because I am not exactly a beginner either), but also because this order was bought in Russia 1993 by a trusted friend of mine. 

Now, the reason why the serial number was buffed out... One can only speculate. What I did notice is that the serial number was erased in a similar manor as some duplicate OPW's 1 and (other?) duplicate Glory's 1st class I have witnessed. But the engraving of the new serial number is a real mistery. The order was not purchased as part of a group so it was not done to deceive.

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Dear USSR,

no doubt, your OGI is 100% authentic - your first photograph was wrong :-)

It's a very late version with that pebbled rv.

A more or less logic solution for the new engraved s/n. and the absolute 10/10 condition might be, that Gantsev's OGI had been stolen, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. Maybe the stamping machine was out of order or engraving was just easier. So the mint could also not STAMP this cyrillic "d" on the reverse for "duplicat".

Have you checked Gantsev's personel files in the military archives, if there is something like that recorded?

Kind regards

Christian

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Thanks Christian,

Yes, it does sound like a plausible explanation. I have not checked the files yet. Do you think this kind of information is documented? 

Cheers!

Matt

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Gents,

  My take:

  - The obverse of "967" clearly bears the hallmarks of an original, mint-produced OGI.

  - Gantsev's OGI was approved on April 10, 1945.  He died in 1968. 

  - I have never encountered a mint-issued official duplicate OGI whose serial number was hand engraved.  All serial numbers were stamped.  The stamped Cyrillic letter "D" (for duplicate) was found above the serial number.

  - I believe USSR's OGI to be a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits.  That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added.  It is anyone's guess as to why "967" was chosen.  For illustrative purposes, the attachment shows the reverse side of two sequentially numbered non-issued OGIs.  As Christian noted, their very pronounced stippling clearly matches that of USSR's OGI.

  While USSR's OGI's authenticity is not in doubt, the fact it was altered will clearly affect its long-term value.  In my personal view, it would have been better if the original serial number had not been removed - even if it was a non-issued piece.

Regards,

slava1stclass 

Twins.jpg

Edited by slava1stclass

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Slava1stclass puts it well. Sorry to say, but I think, this order is the victim of the "wild" 1990s. The fact that it was purchased in Russia in 1993 strongly supports this case. 

 

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No need to say to say sorry;-) I'm well aware that the value is affected by the serial number alteration ;-) 

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5 hours ago, USSR said:

No need to say to say sorry;-) I'm well aware that the value is affected by the serial number alteration ;-) 

Dear Matt,

at least you have an OGI in a most outstanding 10/10 condition in your collection :-) Quite a large number of OGIs have been polished to dead by their proud owners ;-)

In 1996 I bought an authentic Kutuzov 2nd class for about USD 600,-. Also for the Yeltsin-era a bargain. By research in the military archives and by experts opinion I came to the result, that the s/n. had been altered :-( I had the luck, to find a Russian buyer at an auction in Vienna in 2009, who payed USD 6.000,- for this order :-)

In January 1994 I purchased my Full Cavalier Gnitienko-set of 1st category for about USD 1.500,- from Ukraine. Sgt. Gnitienko passed away in Charkov and his heirs sold the set.

So I guess, your OGI is - despite the s/n. alteration - an excellent investment for you :-) And these OGIs with this late and special rv. are quite rare!

Kind regards

Christian

 

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On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 18:17, USSR said:

Here it is

IMG_4273.JPG

And a scan of the obverse 

IMG_4274.JPG

Gents,

  Serial number "967" is now available for sale on the well-known auction site.  Opening bid was .99 U.S. cents.  Current bid stands at $20.50.

  Christian's and my own comments used earlier in this thread are cited in the order's description:

"The first theory is that the initial order was stolen from or lost by Dmitry Feodorovich Gantsev, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. The stamping machine might have been out of order so the mint could notstamp the number and the cyrillic "D" for "duplicat".

The second theory is that the order is a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits.  That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added."

  Good luck to USSR! 

Regards,

slava1stclass

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1 hour ago, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  Serial number "967" is now available for sale on the well-known auction site.  Opening bid was .99 U.S. cents.  Current bid stands at $20.50.

  Christian's and my own comments used earlier in this thread are cited in the order's description:

"The first theory is that the initial order was stolen from or lost by Dmitry Feodorovich Gantsev, he went with his documents to the mint and they gave him - or sold him - this very new one. The stamping machine might have been out of order so the mint could notstamp the number and the cyrillic "D" for "duplicat".

The second theory is that the order is a non-issued/unawarded example whose original serial number was four digits.  That serial number was removed and serial number "967" was added."

  Good luck to USSR! 

Regards,

slava1stclass

Gentlemen,

"the first theory", mine, is totally wrong! I made a mistake :-( I simply oversaw, that Gantsev already passed away in 1968 and not in the 1990s, during the inferno of the Yeltsin-era. Of course, in the 1960s Gantsev would have got a duplicate OGI with stamped s/n. and with an "d" on it!

"The second theory" by Slava1stclass is the correct one :-)

I guess, Matt's OGI will get a highest bid somewhere in the range between USD 5,000.- and USD 7,000.-.

The order is in an outright 10/10 condition, represents the very last version and there are no doubts about authenticy. On the other side, this OGI has no history, due to fact, that this order came directly - stolen or illegally sold - from the mint and the s/n. was afterwards faked, to hide the legal ownership of the Moscow mint. So, it seems quite difficult, to sell it to a Russian collector.

Kind regards

Christian

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On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 13:00, USSR said:

Last January he sold a single undocumented OG1 for $7750 so $10k for this set will be easy to accomplish.

 

On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 11:47, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  While USSR's OGI's authenticity is not in doubt, the fact it was altered will clearly affect its long-term value.  In my personal view, it would have been better if the original serial number had not been removed - even if it was a non-issued piece.

Regards,

slava1stclass

 

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 10:07, Christian Zulus said:

Gentlemen,

I guess, Matt's OGI will get a highest bid somewhere in the range between USD 5,000.- and USD 7,000.-.

Kind regards

Christian

Gents,

  USSR's OGI serial number "967" sold for $5,000.00 on the well-known auction site. 

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited by slava1stclass

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5 hours ago, slava1stclass said:

 

 

Gents,

  USSR's OGI serial number "967" sold for $5,000.00 on the well-known auction site. 

Regards,

slava1stclass

Dear slava1stclass,

many thanks for the information and congratulation to Matt (USSR)!

Kind regards

Christian

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On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 15:51, slava1stclass said:

Gents,

  Currently available on the well-known auction site for a buy-it-now price of $3,500.00.  The orders booklet and OGII only first surfaced at auction in Ukraine a couple of years back.  Since then, the "OGIII" has now suddenly appeared.  While I'm confident in the OGII's and orders booklet's authenticity, I can't say the same for the OGIII based on the images below.  While the OGIII's "serial number" matches that awarded to the Full Cavalier in question, the likelihood of the original OGIII being found and then reunited with the OGII and orders booklet seems remote at best.  The seller is in Latvia and has a solid eBay reputation.

  In any event, this an interesting offering as the Full Cavalier in question initially served in an airborne unit and later transitioned to duties as an aerial gunner/radio operator in an IL-2 Shturmovik ground attack aircraft.  His OGIII recommendation included credit for shooting down a German aircraft.  His IL-2 pilot would go on to earn the HSU title.

Regards,

slava1stclass

OKf.jpg

OK.jpg

OKa.jpg

OKb.jpg

OKc.jpg

OKd.jpg

OKe.jpg

Gents,

  This group went unsold on the well-known auction site.  Its last price was BIN for $1,599.00.  The seller pulled the listing on February 22 indicating it was "no longer available."

Regards,

slava1stclass

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On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:07, Christian Zulus said:

Gentlemen,

What's the story behind the OGI s/n. 848?

Kind regards

Christian

Christian,

  He was a corporal with duties as a forward observer/forward observer squad leader assigned to an artillery regiment in a rifle division subordinated to the 69th Army.  His OGI was for action in mid-April 1945 (after the Oder River crossing) during offensive operations to the south of the Seelow Heights IVO of Lebus, Germany. 

  All told, he received seven decorations during the war; six orders - two OPWIIs, an ORS and three OGs and one medal - a CSM.

Regards,

slava1stclass

Edited by slava1stclass

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OGI 848 - Andrey Nikotovich SAL'NIKOV (1915-1982).

IMG_8891.JPGkav001_2.bmp

Two full OG awardees. Sal'nikov (left) and Rizhen'kin (right).

kav001_3.bmp

Edited by Egorka

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Assembly of Full Cavaliers of the Order of Glory, Moscow, 1970. From Rizhen'kin personal papers.

Screen Shot 2017-04-05 at 21.43.50.png

Edited by Egorka

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Gents,

  Currently available on the well-known auction site with an opening bid of 99 U.S. cents.  Auction runs for 10 days.  This OGII was awarded to Full Cavalier Guards Sergeant Major Nikolay K. Moroz.

Regards,

slava1stclass

1645 Moroz.jpg

1645 Moroz a.jpg

Edited by slava1stclass

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