gregM Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 ------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 This is developing into a very interesting thread indeed. Here is a thought... We Talk about Makers and Controllers.... but what about assemblers? Is it possible that there is a firm "XX" who did not make anything, but rather just assembeled? Either as a subcontractor, or free agent. If for example firm XX made Rims and cores, and assembeled then, and stamped them XX for control, we have a maker. If he could not assemble all me made, and sold parts to YY to be assembeled... and YY assembeled them and stamped them YY for control... then YY is indeed the "maker" as far as collector speak goes, as he assembeled and finished the cross ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 Personally I don't think we will get a one size fits all solution. Too many variables. Each cross type will have to be examined on its own merits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted August 9, 2013 Author Share Posted August 9, 2013 Perhaps we won't find any answers..... I'd love to see the other "control" marks found on this style of EK1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted September 6, 2013 Author Share Posted September 6, 2013 Still waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Stahlhut Posted September 7, 2013 Share Posted September 7, 2013 (edited) you will be waiting for a long time, since that style of ek1 is fairly scarce. again, wonderful crosses! p.s. i think bernard b. holst has one of these as well; why not ask him? Edited September 7, 2013 by Eric Stahlhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 There has beena bit if discussion about "Y" over the years... so I was looking at a couple today, and begin to wonder (for the 10th time) why the "Y" stamp under the needle.... both are 800 under the hook... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 16, 2013 Share Posted December 16, 2013 Ok, my question..... if we find an EK2 with a "Y" on the ring, we would have no problem saying "Thats the makers stamp" If these stamps were not for advertising, but part of the quality control system for awards delivered to the army, then how about the following theory... (And i know that not all people like theories, but remember how Wernitz book proved a couple of things that had been theory up until the books came out) If maker "whatever" had produced flat crosses with an "800" stamp, finished product that were then rerouted to the army... I am guessing that back plates may have been stamped before assembly? Imagine you assemble a cross, stamp the mark on the back, and turn it aver and see you have chipped the core? (Just a thought) So maker "whatever" has his crosses rerouted to the army, but they are already stamped "800" where his control stamp should be... what would be more logical than stamping it somewhere else... in this case under the needle... Godet stamped on the needle... OK, all theory and thoughts... but I dont think we get anywhere without anyone putting a theory on the table.... If a firm stamp on one side of the needle, why not on the other? and if Y is an accepted EK2 producer, why not an EK1 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Someone just posted these on another forum I am on. May be they will help spur some new discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Hi Greg, Thats a nice cross. somewhere I have an EK2 with Y, I must see if I can dig it out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 (edited) Thanks Chris, It's not mine. I posted it for someone else who was hoping to find out more about it. Until yesterday, I don't remember ever seeing a "Y" stamped ek1 before. Edited December 25, 2013 by gregM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Hi, I think Don posted one before, I really like them, they are small fine pieces. Best Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted December 23, 2013 Author Share Posted December 23, 2013 Mine had a "k" stamped into it. As for why the underside of the pin, well, here's a thought. Look at how a pin is shaped. If you want it to lay flat when you stamp it then it needs to be laid top down. Sometimes the obvious answer is the easiest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Mine had a "k" stamped into it. As for why the underside of the pin, well, here's a thought. Look at how a pin is shaped. If you want it to lay flat when you stamp it then it needs to be laid top down. Sometimes the obvious answer is the easiest. They could of course stampt the pins before assembly ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted December 24, 2013 Author Share Posted December 24, 2013 Exactly. So how does it become a quality control mark then? Personally I think the whole quality control mark theory is weak. Perhaps it is the maker mark of the firm that made the pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 Exactly. So how does it become a quality control mark then? Personally I think the whole quality control mark theory is weak. Perhaps it is the maker mark of the firm that made the pin. Why would a pin maker bother? For me the Makermark/Quality control stamp theory holds no water as the stamps serve as both at the same time. To identify the maker so the Army/Govt can control the Quality. A Stamp of "Z" on an EK2 ring is surely not there so soldiers ca marvel about the Quality of the Crosses made by some strange firm they have never heard of, but rather that a control dude can look at a delivery and say "500 crosses from Firma Zicklewaffelmann, random control shows they are fine"... so maker identification for purposes of control... How many flat crosses DON't have a maker mark of some kind? I am not a cross expert, so maybe there are, but what are the chances that at the same time the "Y" crosses are one of the very very few NOT to have a maker stamp on the back, but by coincidence some guy making pins stamps the back of his pins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 (edited) Do you see an "A" or a "Y" ? Kind of hard to tell. We have always assumed they were an "A". http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2402096&posted=1#post2402096 Edited December 25, 2013 by gregM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E Williams Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 "Y" to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted December 25, 2013 Share Posted December 25, 2013 (edited) I don't think we should necessarily put the "Y" marked Ek1s in the same group as the "quality control" marked crosses. The quality control marks that we have been talking about ( K, B, C, backwords R ) have always been very small stamps and always positioned up very close to the hinge and if I'm not mistaken, usually seen on crosses with the "Fr" style core. Not on slant "W" cored crosses. Edited December 25, 2013 by gregM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 Wow, no comments. Do I know how to kill a thread or what ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 Must be the Smell of unwashed biker ;-) Ok, here is a question.... ( K, B, C, backwords R ) have these been seen on crosses that have any other maker stamps on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted December 26, 2013 Share Posted December 26, 2013 (edited) Just a quick search through past threads at WAF turned up crosses that are maker marked WS, Fr and Fr, that have a variety of the smaller "control" marks. There may be others, I just did a very quick search. My own WS has a backwards R under the pin. Edited December 26, 2013 by gregM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted December 27, 2013 Author Share Posted December 27, 2013 I would think a comparison of pins by mark is required to determine if the mark might be linked to a particular pin type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australia Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 The WW1 EK1 I have is stamped on the centre of the pin on the reverse . I personally think it's a maker mark and not a control stamp. Just my 2 cents . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted December 27, 2013 Share Posted December 27, 2013 (edited) I am leaning that direction as well but the theroy that the marks might be for the maker of (the pin) is interesting. Edited December 27, 2013 by gregM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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