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    Austrian Made St. Sava's


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    Don't mention it. Same here!

    Couple of more images of G.A.S. saints from 3rd class orders.

    http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-02661900-1389532019.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-46269300-1389532265.jpg

    Edited by paja
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    Please tell me about this type of the medal.

    Thank you

    Paja is correct. Bertrand was a French jewelery company founded in 1863 and they produced many order medals for countries around the world. They are still producing today. The address on the box (nice box! This type box was generally used by Bertrand to deliver the Serbian White Eagle order and a blue colored box was used to deliver the St. Sava order) was in use until 1917 so this dates the medal to being produced from 1903-1917. Bertrand produced the type II St. Sava medal for the Serbian government, with the design changed on the back of the medal eliminating the "M" monogram and replacing it with the year numerals of 1883, the year the order was founded. Type II, St. Sava were produced during the Karageorgevich dynasty from 1903-1918 by only two producers, Bertrand and Scheid. Bertrand produced a large number of St. Sava's for the Serbian government to award WWI participants. Many different painters were used by Bertrand to meet the production demand, so many style paintings for Bertrand St. Sava's could be found. Some are quite nice, like your example, and other are primitive in execution.

    Markus

    Edited by Markus
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    This is a good opportunity to continue old discussion we had in Rogi's topic:

    http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/57582-purchasing-st-sava-order-tips/

    Look at the following two orders, images of the saint look like Bertrand's but there's monogram on the back side...

    http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-64033000-1389719876.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-63975100-1389719889.jpg

    Edited by paja
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    Paul was kind enough to share images of this one with us.

    http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-23362700-1389720201.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-24935400-1389720207.jpg

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    They look authentic unlike this from Liverpool medals first showed on the forum by obi007

    http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/58460-serbia-order-of-st-sava-commander-1st-type-m/

    http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-84309300-1389720582.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-53277900-1389720594.jpg

    http://www.liverpoolmedals.com/Order-of-St.-Sava-Commander-Ist-Type-M.html

    Edited by paja
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    Markus mentioned different types of this order, generally speaking I type is with monogram, II is with year 1883 on the back side and the saint in red robes, and III is also with 1883 on the back but the saint is in green robes.

    Based on this classification Sorlini can also be put among producers of the II type.

    This one's from emedals: http://www.emedals.com/collectors-gallery/europe/serbia/orders/order-of-st-sava/order-of-st-sava-4?vmcchk=1

    http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-45017600-1389721722.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-7937-0-99719500-1389721731.jpg

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    Hi Radmilo,

    Interesting that Bertrand had type I Sava' s as well. They must have starting working on them prior to the dynasty shift for sure. The book source I was using didn't have Bertrand samples with the M monogram, but does mention Bertrand started production on Serbian orders just before the Balkan wars. The two samples you posted with Bertrand style paintings, also look very Bertrand style to my eye, especially with the type of crown painting. The vast majority seems to have been type II production, so I think your samples are quite rare! Sorlini producer for type II also seems to be rare. What a wild looking painting on the Sorlini!

    Edited by Markus
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    I can not say with absolute certainty that they are Bertrand's orders, but based on the image of the saint both Paul and I think that they are French.

    None of the books that I have or had states anything similar, as far as I know Bertrand's not on any list of the I type producers...

    Sorlini orders with saint in red robes are described by Car & Muhić in their book, all of them have FS (Fran Sorlini) and silver hallmarks on the suspension ring. I must admit that I like this variant much more than the rest of them made by the same producer.

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    I've been thinking a lot about the I class Bertrand, and something doesn't really fit with me, I was thinking and might it be possible that, the original Saint's photo on a M monogramed piece was worn off or damaged in some way, and the recipients hired Bertrand privately to re-do the portrait?

    Whenever I see the M monogramed Bertrand they always have a different icon style.

    Have to agree with Radmilo :) the red Sorlinis are awesome :D just after Scheid in my favorite icons :D style :)

    Edited by Rogi
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    When I compare these two I can easily say that they are both definitely Bertrand.

    Those half circles around the central medallion are like that only on orders made by Bertrand (at least I think so...).

    And not only that, many other details are the same.

    Edited by paja
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    But after closely examining back side of the order with monogram I am no longer that sure about it's authenticity...

    On that Huguenin from LM the whole central medallion on the back is replaced, here the medallion is not replaced but it could be that the monogram was added later.

    On the other hand look how many "holes" on the back medallion are there on II type Bertrand, I believe that it is not possible that all of them are covered with monogram...

    Edited by paja
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    But after closely examining back side of the order with monogram I am no longer that sure about it's authenticity...

    On that Huguenin from LM the whole central medallion on the back is replaced, here the medallion is not replaced but it could be that the monogram was added later.

    On the other hand look how many "holes" on the back medallion are there on II type Bertrand, I believe that it is not possible that all of them are covered with monogram...

    attachicon.gif2.JPG

    Yes the photo of the backside clearly shows an M monogram that is too small for the space. All the other type M monograms filled that white space on the enamel. Maybe there have been parts replaced by a collector or jeweler on these type I Bertrand's.

    Very nice thread Gents!

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    Yes the photo of the backside clearly shows an M monogram that is too small for the space. All the other type M monograms filled that white space on the enamel. Maybe there have been parts replaced by a collector or jeweler on these type I Bertrand's.

    Very nice thread Gents!

    Aye true, but it could as well be a Replacement M on a 1883 Bertrand too. I mean if we check our Yugoslavian Orders and Decorations book, you can clearly see in one of the photos and mentioned there a 1882 replacement from possibly an Order of the White Eagle back piece on a St. Sava :)

    Best case scenario on the one Radmilo posted would be something like, vet has old M style Sava, it falls/breaks whatever :S accidents happen. Vet. takes the Sava to a Jeweler who replaces the M monogram on a later Bertrand style piece. Then again this is only speculation but if I was a Vet, that's probably what I'd do if I had my older style piece hit the floor and shatter :D

    Then again, do we know how the 1883 is attached? If it is in whole or in parts attached to the back, if its down completely fixed, then we can eliminate a replacement.

    If it is only secured in 2-3 places, then that can explain the crack where the 3 would have been and how it was possible to remove the piece from the back.

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    Markus,

    We can only thank you for starting it! :)

    So we probably solved the mystery behind that piece.

    About the other one, these two images next to it made me think of Bertrand, there are some similarities (rest of the pictures are from Verlag Militaria website).

    Piece just like that can be found in Car&Muhić under unknown producers, according to them it could be that the order was made in some German workshop.

    Edited by paja
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    There were some workshops that made private examples of Orders, I remember reading somewhere for our Savas and Takovos. Could very easily be one of these producers you are suggesting Radmilo :)

    Edited by Rogi
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    Rogi,

    I was in a middle of writing my reply when you posted yours, I must say that I agree with you, I believe that someone replaced year with monogram. The only problem with that theory are those holes I mentioned, look how many of them are on the back side.

    But I guess it can't be that hard to fill them, the question is how much would that be visible...

    Also one more thing, it could be that this replacement was not done by some vet but by a person who knows that pieces with monogram are couple of times more expensive than those with 1883 on the back...

    Edited by paja
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