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JapanX

Order of the Red Banner 5th Awarding: Certificated Fake

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But you can`t sell such soviet order (for 28 k`s by the way :whistle:) without research!

Nope, you really can`t.

So you show some pictures of the cavalier

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Not a problem!

Cause we have this piece of paper ("straight from archive")

So what we have is one of the very last (and indeed it is :lol:) awardings with 5th cartouche ;)

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The only problem is ...

Actually there are many problems.

See for youself ;)

Our treasure is on the left

On the right we have uncerificated :P original piece

Edited by JapanX

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Is the McDaniel certificate genuine? I know for a fact that they have been faked, which is why you should be careful to ignore ANY certificates of authenticity and always examine the piece with great care under a high powered lens. If the piece comes up to scrutiny the certificate can then be used as back up material. I know of cases where a respected Russian expert on Imperial Orders was giving certificates of authenticity and you didn't need magnification to tell that the pieces were 100% fake, unfortunately try to tell that to the sellers, still I expect the expert needed funds to cope with increased living costs and I know on the coin side from the 60s-80's a very respected Russian expert was authenticating Russian coins for western collections in exchange for things unobtainable under the Soviet system.

Paul

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... with great care under a high powered lens.

I am afraid that even high powered lens couldn`t help if one doesn`t know where to look :lol:

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... respected Russian expert on Imperial Orders was giving certificates of authenticity and you didn't need magnification to tell that the pieces were 100% fake

Yep.

This one is quite famous for his "naive" mistakes.

Currently working as hard as he can in Russian State Historical Museum :lol:

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I don't see the big deal. McDaniel clearly states on his certificates that he simply offers his opinion, and that he cannot guarantee factual accuracy. As far as I know every major dealer and authenticator of Soviet awards has been known to accidentally sell or authenticate fakes every once in a while. Every collector should just do his or her homework and not fully rely on CoAs.

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Ferdinand,

I totally agree but given that some of the so called "collectors" who wouldn't know an order of the Red Banner from a piece of albatross dung and just see it as a form of investment they need the certificates more than the badge. Just to give you an idea of the mentality of some of these people in a fairly recent auction an extremely nice early strike gold Peter the Great medal turned up, it sold surprisingly cheaply the buyer admitted that it was a lovely piece but he had previously told every one potentially interested that it was a fake and given their knowledge (or lack of it) they believed it, he later went on to do extremely well with it (after he had got the necessary certificate). If collectors spent more of their money on good reference works and studied the subject intensely before diving in at the deep end then these certification services would contract.

Paul

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This is why the buyer should really do his/her homework.  COAs are nice, but most of the time not worth the paper they are written on.  Everyone his human and makes mistakes.  If a person likes to collect an item, it ultimately falls upon the person to use his resources to make sure what is being bought is good and to ensure a good return policy in case things are not as the seemed. 

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