Yankee Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Dear members Can anybody say who the maker might be & give an estimate to what era the badge is from. There is only the city, gold content mark & barely visible eagle below the enamel The badge measures 32mm which is rather small and the arms are flat. Thank you. http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-57939700-1408163586.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-21619400-1408163611.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 By these photos I`d say Keibel and Kemmerer. Somewhere around 1850 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 By these photos I`d say Keibel and Kemmerer. Somewhere around 1850 That is great news, no idea what I had. Prince Dimitri Romanov stated the average size of the Badge is 36 mm. Had thought reduced size but I do not know if that exists with Russian Orders. Sincerely Yankee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Had thought reduced size but I do not know if that exists with Russian Orders. Yes, there were reduced orders (they appeared for the first time soon after 1814 war company). Early badges (like your) have average size 32-33 mm Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 16, 2014 Author Share Posted August 16, 2014 Yes, there were reduced orders (they appeared for the first time soon after 1814 war company). Early badges (like your) have average size 32-33 mm Cheers, Nick I appreiate the info on the smaller size Saint Anne & I can assume that would apply to the other lower ranked Russian Orders. This also holds true for German States where earlier is smaller. I recall in the Hermitage there is a room called "Hall Of the Generals" who had participated in the Napoleonic Wars. Basically was floored by seeing all these decoations on each General. Some were also wearing impressive bars that would make any collector just stare. There was a special exhibit in the Guard's Museum that had the orders collection on view, unfortunately for me I had just missed it. Was told if you make an appointment a good amount of time ahead the curator would let you see the collection privately. Something to look forward to.... Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Keibel and Kammerer date from about 1837-41 after which Kammerer left the partnership and Wilhelm Keibel continued producing imperial orders until the 1860s when he was succeeded by his son Julius and in around 1880 by his Grandson Albert. KK badges are scarce (especially if the date is visible on the suspension ring) although they don't command the high prices they used to a few years ago.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Keibel and Kammerer date from about 1837-41 Paul, I know that They say one picture could save you a thousand words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 On the leaft we have KK mark On the right year mark 1853 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 ... although they don't command the high prices they used to a few years ago. Let`s hope this tendecy will prevail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Hi Gentlemen Thank you Nick for showing a properly marked & dated Keibel & Kammerer LS Decoration. That is a really nice example . Thanks Paul for providing the names of the heirs who continued the family business. Am I correct to think that all Saint Anne pieces made by Keibel & Kammerer did not put their initial on the lower reverse arm? The idea of starting the initials on the lower reverse began with Wilhelm after he was sole owner of the firm with the initial WK, his son Julius IK and grandson Albert AK or am I wrong? Did not see any date, is it possible that it could be on the gold wire ribbon ring. The ribbon itself is fairly tight to the ring and thought better not to pull in fear of tearing due to the age. Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul wood Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Not true, you see IP on the reverse enamel of Imanuel Pannasch pieces from the 1830s.Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) Am I correct to think that all Saint Anne pieces made by Keibel & Kammerer did not put their initial on the lower reverse arm? Hi Brian! Yes, they usually are. If I remember correctly there are three types of marks that can be found on KK pieces from [1844s - early 50s] period of time. First variation (early marks) Edited August 19, 2014 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Eagle on the upper ray KK on the lower ray Year mark (in this case 1844) on ear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) Second variation (or subvariation of previous marks if you wish) Edited August 19, 2014 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) Eagle + KK + year mark 1851 on the year Edited August 19, 2014 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Another example from the same time period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 (edited) Third variation (later 72 mark) Edited August 19, 2014 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Brian, will it be possible for you to make a nice clear close-ups of obverse and revers? Frankly, by these pictures it is hard to be certain in this or that attribution. Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Not true, you see IP on the reverse enamel of Imanuel Pannasch pieces from the 1830s. Paul Hi Paul Thanks for bringing it to my attention, never even thought to come across one of these. I think of them as the Faberge of Russian Orders, maybe those too come down to earth from their lofty prices. Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Brian, will it be possible for you to make a nice clear close-ups of obverse and revers? Frankly, by these pictures it is hard to be certain in this or that attribution. Regards, Nick Hi Nick Will try to get larger detailed scans for you. First time to have seen one marked "KK" , so they do exist. Many thanks for showing. Sincerely Brian Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-34754800-1408479416.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-23345200-1408479427.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-44687400-1408479451.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-48519400-1408479464.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-93138400-1408479479.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2014/post-2110-0-84990200-1408479489.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Hi Nick In IMG 170 the gold wire that looks to be a profile of an amimal of some sort. Unfortunately could not get it clear probably the wire being so narrow. I hope the other images work will work. Sincerely Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Posted August 19, 2014 Author Share Posted August 19, 2014 Just noticed on image 166 the ring looks to be 50 maybe for the year or should there always be present the 56 gold content and it can't be 50 for the year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 First time to have seen one marked "KK" , so they do exist. They certainly exist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Just noticed on image 166 the ring looks to be 50 maybe for the year or should there always be present the 56 gold content and it can't be 50 for the year? It could be year mark 1850. Here it is under right angle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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