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paja

Socialist Yugoslavia Fakes!

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paja   

You're welcome Drugo,
Unfortunately like you said the list is not over so I would like to call everyone if they notice some fake or already have photos of fake Yugoslav militaria to post them here.

When it comes to the list of decorations you made, all of them are looking authentic to me except for some of Partisan Stars II class (III class also). There are some scary ones out there being sold almost daily for years. Most of the "strange" ones have shinny back side and screw nut, badly inscribed numbers or at least not as good as on some examples I know are 100% authentic, traces of something that looks like fake patina... I wrote about this in the Partisan Star topic (http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/15023-yugoslavian-partisan-stars/?p=581148) but so far on one had anything to say on this matter.

About the others my guess is as good as yours...

Edited by paja

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Drugo   

Hy Paja,

I read your comments about the II class Partisan Stars... I remember there was a period in Slovenia when collectors were thinking that a certain number of these fakes were starting being produced, but after a long discussion they came to the conclusion that this sort of deep, red soviet enamel could not be faked so easily, and especially not at a low enough cost.

The stars you show have that type of enamel that would not ring an alarm bell in my head (for example, compare it to the one of the fake I class Partisan Stars on the previous page here, with those ugly red dots beneath the surface...). The screw nuts, they do appear "cheap" in my opinion, but you know, screwplates can be changed, and even if they are fake it doesn't prove much about the star itself. Right now, I would not be afraid of fake partisan stars, and the fact that the prices have started dropping would only discourage further from their imitation, at least for a good quality copy. But this is just my opinion, and I do agree that one has always to be extra-careful: fakes make the most damage at the begining, when it is known that there are NO fakes, so one doesn't pay too much attention. On the other hand, if you start being paranoid, you start... seeing things. :D

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paja   

Thanks for expressing your opinion.

OK, about enamel I am not sure, I really don't have a clue how difficult is it to make it. There were also theories that someone perhaps found original tools for production, how realistic is that I can't say but apparently some IKOM tools were found and once again put into use.

Screw nuts, why would there be a need for someone to fake only them? If the theory about those orders being found in some storage is true then they would have probably been kept together with the screw nuts. I really can't see why would someone separate nuts from orders. And we are not speaking about just couple of cases, practically all of those orders have bright and shinny nuts like that (Only on ebay I've seen 50 for sure in the last two years). Also if they were in storage being that they are made out of silver they would've had to "catch" some patina over the decades. These look brand spanking new, apart from those strange looking dark stains on the wreath, fake patina or whatever they are. On the other hand storage theory can explain why their enamel is perfect. Not a single spot let alone scratch which is something very common on these orders that were awarded and worn. On most of the examples whoever put number did a sloppy job, compared with 100% original stars from my collection they look very different, thicker, in some cases literally unreadable.
Most of them are in the 5XXX range but other numbers appear as well both lower and higher.
Whether they are fake or not one thing is certain they are definitely different. If we presume they all came from USSR together then why is there difference between those two "types". Is it known how many of them were actually made in the first place? If most of those for example Orders of National Liberation are from some storage I still can't make difference between "regular" awarded orders and "storage" examples which is not the case with Partisan Stars.

Edited by paja

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Drugo   

Hello Paja. :)

About the screwplates: I did say they look strange, but I am not so sure they are fakes, I just wanted to express the idea that they are not one part with the order, and they can be switched. Anyway, I sent a couple of pictures to a friend of mine, who is an expert in soviet orders and screwplates in particular, and in his opinion these screwplates are ok, he says they might have been covered in silver but they are original.

As for the 5xxx serial curse, this is indeed the range of Partisan stars that were being discussed as fakes/originals on the domestic forum. I remember I collected all the suspicious stars at the time in one single picture (therefore I am sorry if some users might perhaps recognize one of their owns, I did this only with a "scientific" purpose). ;)

It is interesting, because at the time the main topic of discussion was the quality and details of the wreath, while now you are talking about the reverse, but in both cases the range is mostly the 5000-5999 one.

I repeat: these stars were discussed as copies because of single oddities in each of them, but in the end the conclusion was that it is probably just a slightly different stock and that they are original, because the enamel, which is the most difficult part to forge (even if you have the original tools, enamel is more about the specific quality of the material used, and it is very hard and expensive to copy the Soviet enamel from WWII, compare for example the much thinner and lighter Yugoslav enamel on post-war home-made partisan stars).

307x35h.jpg

Of course, I don't have the ultimate answer to your doubts, but I don't feel too much uncomfortable with these stars that you pointed out - at least yet.

All the best

Drugo

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Drugo   

This just appeared on ebay, it's always the same Spanish seller. Spanish medals, in all different versions, are among the most faked Yugoslavian medals.

By the way, these are VERY rare, but this seller appears to have enough of them to picture two of them in the same picture, obverse and reverse, and they are both so identical and in pristine condition that he doesn't need to tell you which one you will receive. :D

2cdbpee.jpg

Edited by Drugo

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paja   

Greetings Drugo, it is always interesting to start a discussion like this one :beer:

About the screw nuts, I am not claiming that they are fake, I just wondered why would there be a need for someone to combine fake nuts with original orders. Same goes for the order, I am just not that big expert to be able to do something like that (claim that they are fake), the only thing that I can do is express my doubts. Although I do respect your opinion and truly hope that all of those stars are original some of the questions I've been asking myself are still unanswered. As to that discussion you mentioned, I think that the results are well let's just say inconclusive, to me it looks like those who thought it was fake didn't change their opinion and same goes for the others who thought different.
Comparison #1 - Screw nuts

I am far from expert on Soviet decorations but I think plenty of GMIC members are so it would be great if someone could tell us a little bit more about them.

Comparison #2 - Reverses

14t7sb4.jpg

In my opinion it's not only the screw nuts that have that "cheap" look...

Edited by JimZ

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paja   

This just appeared on ebay, it's always the same Spanish seller. Spanish medals, in all different versions, are among the most faked Yugoslavian medals.

By the way, these are VERY rare, but this seller appears to have enough of them to picture two of them in the same picture, obverse and reverse, and they are both so identical and in pristine condition that he doesn't need to tell you which one you will receive. :D

2cdbpee.jpg

I started separate topic on Spain Volunteers material before I started this one. I was looking for a good excuse to connected them, you just gave me one.

Anyway here's the link: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/63248-fake-yugoslav-volunteers-in-spain-1936-1956-medal

Edited by paja

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Emanuel   

Emonlaib sold from September some 15 Yugoslavian Partisan Stars II class, come on, that's a joke guys,I feel really pity for all these people buying such stuff.

In the following link you can see a superb quality Partisan Star II class from the seller :)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/YUGOSLAVIA-SERBIA-RUSSIA-ORDER-OF-PARTISAN-STAR-2ND-CLASS-NO-2471-MEDAL-/381085937936?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58ba7df110&nma=true&si=hFDlNtaUFsuQpuGsjWV%252FH2xCyZE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

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paja   

Thanks for expressing your opinion. I tried to start a discussion about those stars on GMIC almost a year ago and I felt like I hit the wall of silence. Drugo and you are the first ones that publicly spoke about this matter. One more thing there are also III class stars looking as suspicious to me as some of those II class ones...

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paja   

One more doctored lower class of Order of merits towards people?

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-21007300-1419524135.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-63127000-1419524140.jpg

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paja   

Source: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yugoslavia-Order-of-the-National-Merit-with-Golden-Star-I-class-boxed-/141516315523?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20f3079b83

The rest of the photos.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-71780900-1419524343.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-20808400-1419524351.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-97481400-1419524355.jpg

Edited by paja

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paja   

When it comes to this type of first class order (double horizontal needle) I've seen conversion variants - those were always numbered and with slightly different Roman numeral, and I've seen "regular" types. The one from the photos above should be that regular type, but so far all of those I've seen were hallmarked and without Roman numeral! Some of them really looked terrible, that is the last type awarded until the breakup, but all of them had hallmarks!

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paja   

To illustrate:

-Here's one "regular" variant of that type, in my opinion not very good-looking, looks painted but according to some sources should be original regardless of that.

-Photos found here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yugoslavia-Merit-of-the-people-1st-class-order-With-document-/331094755872?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d16c90a20

-As we can see it was awarded in 1984.

-Three hallmarks.

-No Roman numeral.

-Two small rivets (or whatever they are) on the back side.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-20523200-1419525241.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-40626700-1419525243.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-56955900-1419525247.jpg

Edited by paja

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paja   

One more example like that can be seen here: http://sammler.ru/index.php?act=gallery&CODE=picture&id=2006

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-39502400-1419526066.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-68459800-1419526067.jpg

-Again hallmarks, cheap look, two small rivets and no Roman numeral.

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paja   

Now the conversion variant of that type.

I think this one was sold by certain Croatian auction house not that long ago.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-63433200-1419526611.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-25999200-1419526613.jpg

-Numbered.

-Roman numeral.

-One big rivet.

-No hallmarks.

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paja   

Comparison or Roman numerals, first one is from that piece I find suspicious, others from previous three.

It's obviously different...

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paja   

Two more from the same source.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-57141900-1419527381.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-13587800-1419527386.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-35092100-1419527391.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-61557400-1419527395.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-70367800-1419527399.jpg

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paja   

Second one with fake 950 hallmark.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-37716200-1419527556.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-97115900-1419527561.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-37259300-1419527566.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-99359500-1419527570.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_12_2014/post-7937-0-02665000-1419527575.jpg

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paja   

We talked a lot about fakes of Äetnik badges and daggers in this topic: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/31679-serbia-original-chetnik-items/

Collector on other website pointed out that replicas of communist so-called fist daggers are also appearing on ebay...

Here's one: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/YUGOSLAVIA-PARTISAN-034-FIST-KNIFE-034-Model-1943-1944-/121452837952?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c47273c40&nma=true&si=6c47l2Mi4ECYNLgMMTQnfzjnE58%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

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paja   

I'll upload images so we can still see them when the ad disappears.

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-7937-0-57296900-1421170121.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-7937-0-78501100-1421170124.jpg

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-7937-0-89312400-1421170127.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-7937-0-26143700-1421170130.jpg

 

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paja   

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-7937-0-97226300-1421170204.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-7937-0-68275900-1421170209.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_01_2015/post-7937-0-89317000-1421170213.jpg

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paja   

Found it! Photos from article "Partisan knife as a fist" by Branko Bogdanović (ПарттизанÑки нож као пеÑница - Бранко Богдановић).

Second one belonged to Anton Å tevinović (mostly Serbian family from Novska - today in Croatia). 

Piece is from Borna Barac's collection.

Edited by paja

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