P.F.

Romanian Order of the Star- quick question

36 posts in this topic

Thank you

I have that same thought.
Yesterday I had the courage to "dismantle" the Order .. Calm !! She was already with the centerpiece "loose" .. I removed very carefully not to break. And These are the photos of the "dismantle".

Let me know what you think.

 

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On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2015 at 08:31, Carol I said:

I agree that the system appears quite complex at first sight, but it has an underlying logic. Please see below the four variants of the Order of the Star of Romania in use during WWII, from left to right: civilian Knight's Cross, military Knight's Cross (peacetime insignia with swords above the cross), wartime Knight's Cross (swords through the centre and yellow edges on the ribbon - non-'battlefield" awards), wartime Knight's Cross on Military Virtue ribbon (for 'battlefield' awards).

OSR_mod_II.thumb.jpg.e64196b07700904d449

Hi,

I have a question regarding Officer's Class awards and ribbons.  Suppose the photo showing the 4 silver Knight's Cross of Order of the Star were actually 4 gilded Officer's Cross of Order of the Star.  I assume the first 2 awards (leftmost) would have rosette's on the ribbon.  However, in regards to the two remaining (rightmost) award, would they have a rosette since they are on war ribbons??   I am most concerned about award #4 (red-blue ribbon) since it is a Battlefield ribbon. 

I remember reading somewhere that when a 4th Class (Officer's Class) Bulgarian Military Merit Award is suspended from the light blue with silver stripes (wartime or bravery ribbon) that the wartime/bravery ribbon does not have a rosette.  I wondered if this applies to Romanian awards hung from either the wartime or battlefield ribbons.

David

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ID: 28   Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, camelneck said:

Hi,

I have a question regarding Officer's Class awards and ribbons.  Suppose the photo showing the 4 silver Knight's Cross of Order of the Star were actually 4 gilded Officer's Cross of Order of the Star.  I assume the first 2 awards (leftmost) would have rosette's on the ribbon.  However, in regards to the two remaining (rightmost) award, would they have a rosette since they are on war ribbons??   I am most concerned about award #4 (red-blue ribbon) since it is a Battlefield ribbon. 

I remember reading somewhere that when a 4th Class (Officer's Class) Bulgarian Military Merit Award is suspended from the light blue with silver stripes (wartime or bravery ribbon) that the wartime/bravery ribbon does not have a rosette.  I wondered if this applies to Romanian awards hung from either the wartime or battlefield ribbons.

David

Hi David,

Romanian orders in Officer class always had the rosette, irrespective of being peacetime or wartime awards. Please see below an Officer's Cross of the Order of the Star of Romania with Swords on Military Virtue ribbon with the corresponding rosette.

OSR4.jpg.90647edf9659132b4733695ff93bfef6.jpg

Edited by Carol I
Typo

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ID: 29   Posted (edited)

Thanks a lot Carol.  I thought I remembered seeing some rosettes on the military virtue (wartime) ribbon (as you posted).  I have an Officer's Class Order of the Star award (just like the one in the photo that you posted) except mine is on the peacetime ribbon (red with silver stripes) and it has a rosette. 

However, I have an Order of the Crown (Type 2 or WW2 variety) and it is on an incorrect ribbon.  It is on the peacetime ribbon with rosette for Type 1 (WW1) Order of the Crown, instead of the peacetime ribbon for Type 2 (WW2) Order of the Crown.  I have found and bought two types of replacement ribbons for this award--a wartime (non-battlefield) ribbon with gold edges and the military virtue or battlefield ribbon (red with blue edges).  However, since both of these ribbons require rosettes when they are used with an Officer's Class medal, I need to find a rosette for at least one of these 2 ribbons.  Anybody have any rosettes for sale?

Edited by camelneck

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14 hours ago, camelneck said:

Thanks a lot Carol.  I thought I remembered seeing some rosettes on the military virtue (wartime) ribbon (as you posted).  I have an Officer's Class Order of the Star award (just like the one in the photo that you posted) except mine is on the peacetime ribbon (red with silver stripes) and it has a rosette. 

However, I have an Order of the Crown (Type 2 or WW2 variety) and it is on an incorrect ribbon.  It is on the peacetime ribbon with rosette for Type 1 (WW1) Order of the Crown, instead of the peacetime ribbon for Type 2 (WW2) Order of the Crown.  I have found and bought two types of replacement ribbons for this award--a wartime (non-battlefield) ribbon with gold edges and the military virtue or battlefield ribbon (red with blue edges).  However, since both of these ribbons require rosettes when they are used with an Officer's Class medal, I need to find a rosette for at least one of these 2 ribbons.  Anybody have any rosettes for sale?

I am not quite sure what award you have and what ribbon you are looking for. You first mention that the award should have the peacetime ribbon, but then you say that you have two wartime ribbons for which you are looking for rosettes. You also seem to refer to Type II and WWII interchangeably, but this is in fact not the case as Type II awards were in use between 1932 and 1947, while WWII lasted from 1941 (for Romania at least) to 1945. Please note that for the Order of the Crown you have a similar layout as for the Order of the Star I illustrated earlier, with civilian insignia, peacetime military insignia and wartime insignia.

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ID: 31   Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Carol I said:

I am not quite sure what award you have and what ribbon you are looking for. You first mention that the award should have the peacetime ribbon, but then you say that you have two wartime ribbons for which you are looking for rosettes. You also seem to refer to Type II and WWII interchangeably, but this is in fact not the case as Type II awards were in use between 1932 and 1947, while WWII lasted from 1941 (for Romania at least) to 1945. Please note that for the Order of the Crown you have a similar layout as for the Order of the Star I illustrated earlier, with civilian insignia, peacetime military insignia and wartime insignia.

Carol,

I'm aware that Type 2 awards were issued between 1932 and 1947.  WW2 is a subset of this period.  This redundancy was included so people who were not familiar with Type 1 and Type 2 awards would understand that Type 1 awards were issued during WW1 and Type 2 awards were issued during WW2.  I do apologize for any confusion this may have caused. 

>>You first mention that the award should have the peacetime ribbon, but then you say that you have two wartime ribbons for which you are looking for rosettes. <<

I never said my Order of the Crown award "should have the peacetime ribbon".  That is an assumption that you made.  I said my Type 2 Order of the Crown came with the wrong ribbon, which was a Type 1 Peacetime ribbon (complete with rosette).  In fact, the dealer who sold me this Type 2 Order of the Crown is notorious for buying naked medals and dressing them up with the closest ribbon that is readily available to him, which in this case was a Type 1 Romanian Order of the Crown ribbon with rosette. Since there is a very good chance that the person (likely the dealer) who put this improper Type 1 peacetime ribbon on my award had no idea whether the original ribbon was a Type 2 peacetime ribbon, a Type 2 1938 Wartime ribbon, or a red-blue battlefield (Military Virture) ribbon, it is improper to make the assumption that this is a peacetime award and that I must replace it with Type 2 peacetime ribbon.  What if this award came with black and white WW1-era iron cross ribbon?  It wouldn't mean I would have to replace it with black, white, and red WW2-era iron cross ribbon.

That being the case, I found and purchased some Type 2 1938 Wartime Ribbon as well as some red-blue battlefield (Military Virtue) ribbon.  The first ribbon in which I can find a matching rosette will be the ribbon that I use.  (If I can find a Type 2 peacetime ribbon complete with a matching rosette, I'll gladly use that ribbon instead of the other two ribbons that I have already purchased.)

Edited by camelneck

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3 hours ago, Carol I said:

while WWII lasted from 1941 (for Romania at least) to 1945.

Actually, Romania signed the Tripartite Pact on November 23,1940 so one could argue that they became involved in WW2 in 1940 although they didn't join the invasion of the Soviet Union until June 1941.

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2 hours ago, camelneck said:

I never said my Order of the Crown award "should have the peacetime ribbon".  That is an assumption that you made.

I think there must have been a misunderstanding because this is what you wrote:

21 hours ago, camelneck said:

However, I have an Order of the Crown (Type 2 or WW2 variety) and it is on an incorrect ribbon.  It is on the peacetime ribbon with rosette for Type 1 (WW1) Order of the Crown, instead of the peacetime ribbon for Type 2 (WW2) Order of the Crown.

I understand now that you must have the wartime insignia with swords through the centre of the cross.

2 hours ago, camelneck said:

In fact, the dealer who sold me this Type 2 Order of the Crown is notorious for buying naked medals and dressing them up with the closest ribbon that is readily available to him, which in this case was a Type 1 Romanian Order of the Crown ribbon with rosette. Since there is a very good chance that the person (likely the dealer) who put this improper Type 1 peacetime ribbon on my award had no idea whether the original ribbon was a Type 2 peacetime ribbon, a Type 2 1938 Wartime ribbon, or a red-blue battlefield (Military Virture) ribbon, it is improper to make the assumption that this is a peacetime award and that I must replace it with Type 2 peacetime ribbon.  What if this award came with black and white WW1-era iron cross ribbon?  It wouldn't mean I would have to replace it with black, white, and red WW2-era iron cross ribbon.

Some dealer practices are indeed questionable, to say the least, and one should strive to restore the award to its original condition, including matching the ribbon with the award. 

2 hours ago, camelneck said:

If I can find a Type 2 peacetime ribbon complete with a matching rosette, I'll gladly use that ribbon instead of the other two ribbons that I have already purchased.

This puzzles me again. I do not understand how using a peacetime ribbon for a wartime insignia would be better than using the existing ribbon. Both are wrong ribbons for the wartime insignia.

This being said, I wish you good luck to your search for the proper wartime insignia. One solution would be to look for crosses in very poor condition, but with the right ribbon.

 

2 hours ago, camelneck said:

Actually, Romania signed the Tripartite Pact on November 23,1940 so one could argue that they became involved in WW2 in 1940 although they didn't join the invasion of the Soviet Union until June 1941.

One could argue that Romania did get involved much earlier when it allowed the passage of the Polish treasury and elements of the Polish army, but I was referring to the issuance of declarations of war in 1941. 

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Hi Carol,

I now see where this exchange went sour and I will take the blame for it all.   When I wrote "It is on the peacetime ribbon with rosette for Type 1 (WW1) Order of the Crown, instead of the peacetime ribbon for Type 2 (WW2) Order of the Crown", I should have never wrote the 2nd "peacetime".  It was a typo that I never caught until you pointed it out.  When I wrote the paragraph that contained the above sentence, I was trying to give a brief (yet totally unnecessary) explanation as to why I asked my original question.   Thus when I wrote my last comment, I must admit that I was a bit miffed because It never dawned on me that such an afterthought would draw so much criticism or I would have drafted a more careful explanation.  However, now that I understand your point of view, I was wrong to view your comments as a personal attack and I apologize for being so defensive.

You wrote, "Some dealer practices are indeed questionable, to say the least, and one should strive to restore the award to its original condition, including matching the ribbon with the award."   I totally agree with your sentiments and I believe it is our duty to try and preserve history the best we can.   But on the other hand, while this sounds nice in theory, one has to remember that these awards are nearly 80 years old and I'm certain that the majority of these awards no longer come with the original ribbon that came with them during the presentation ceremony.  Just because an award comes with a vintage WW1 ribbon, one has no way of knowing if this is the original ribbon that came with the award, a correct vintage replacement ribbon, an incorrect vintage replacement ribbon, a correct modern replacement ribbon, or an incorrect modern replacement ribbon. (Of course, most collectors can differentiate between a vintage replacement ribbon and a modern replacement ribbon.)

So what should we do with the awards that are being sold without ribbons?  Let them go forever ribbonless or try and find them a proper replacement ribbon even if we aren't sure that the replacement ribbon is the original ribbon?    

I've heard of crooked dealers and collectors who intentionally put non-combat ribbons on combat awards (and vice-versa) in order to sell them for a lot more money.  This is especially common if the same ribbon is used for more than one award.  In this particular case, they remove vintage ribbons from the cheaper awards and put them on more expensive, yet naked, awards.  Thus,  I think it is naive to think that just because a medal comes with a vintage ribbon this means that it is the original ribbon  unless the award comes with a certificate of authenticity.  As these awards continue to changed hands, this degree of uncertainty will only increase as time progresses. 

 

1 hour ago, Carol I said:

I think there must have been a misunderstanding because this is what you wrote:

I understand now that you must have the wartime insignia with swords through the centre of the cross.

Some dealer practices are indeed questionable, to say the least, and one should strive to restore the award to its original condition, including matching the ribbon with the award. 

This puzzles me again. I do not understand how using a peacetime ribbon for a wartime insignia would be better than using the existing ribbon. Both are wrong ribbons for the wartime insignia.

This being said, I wish you good luck to your search for the proper wartime insignia. One solution would be to look for crosses in very poor condition, but with the right ribbon.

 

One could argue that Romania did get involved much earlier when it allowed the passage of the Polish treasury and elements of the Polish army, but I was referring to the issuance of declarations of war in 1941. 

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No problem, David, with the misunderstanding. I agree that authenticity could be hard to prove in many cases and for that very reason one needs to continuously study collection pieces to observe and compare details and weed out doubtful pieces or combinations. Regarding restoration, some parts could indeed be hard to find and I would advise a correct replacement ribbon to a period, but wrong one. Good luck with your search.

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22 minutes ago, Carol I said:

No problem, David, with the misunderstanding. I agree that authenticity could be hard to prove in many cases and for that very reason one needs to continuously study collection pieces to observe and compare details and weed out doubtful pieces or combinations. Regarding restoration, some parts could indeed be hard to find and I would advise a correct replacement ribbon to a period, but wrong one. Good luck with your search.

Hi Carol,

Thanks for your understanding!   I really appreciate your helpful comments.  Patience is a virtue when it comes to looking for the proper medal and ribbon.

David

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