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JapanX   

Of course every major auction sells fakes now and then.

Intentionally or because of "an honest oversight" :catjava:

But this time it is something surreal.

Both in qualitative and in quantitative terms :lol: 

Kunker. September 2015

1827108l.thumb.jpg.758853dc24512058e4084

1827119l.thumb.jpg.3b1c2175b343f48e44af4

1827121l.thumb.jpg.472a2e5c7c654ca199204

1827116l.thumb.jpg.bdee82d3c4c0f2a5559c6

Etc ...

 

 

 

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Just looked at the auction, there a some well known and published fakes amongst the ranks, which is a great shame as the rest of the auction has some nice items, including one very obscure non-European item which will probably relieve me of a few hundred Euros.

Paul

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The Fake Agricultural medal is published in Patrikeev vol. 3 and several of the others have been commented on from less than official on-line sources who tend to copy me in and warn me of the works of the Satanic fakers. There is a lovely mural on a French cathedral, I cannot remember where, which shows the various tortures of Hell, one shows a forger by tortured by a Devil with his instruments of forgery (were it only so in real life).

Paul

 

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JapanX   

I see nothing is sacred to you :o

32.thumb.jpg.34fe7ad7040c7cd43c400ee5b97

Mit Originalitäts-Expertise (!!!) des Staatlichen Historischen Museums in Moskau (!!!) vom 21. Juli 2014.

What kind of a man are you, anyway? :catjava:

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Mit originalitats-Expertise....

Can think no better a guarantee of forgery (and anyway they have no legal binding)

What Kind of man am I, a violent hater of forgers but I can't be all bad as I am kind to animals, especially dogs (mind you so was the German Charlie Chaplin impersonator).

Paul

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JapanX   

 Can think no better a guarantee of forgery (and anyway they have no legal binding)

 

Check out this hologram.

 

33.thumb.jpg.319733b38755b677baff7ab07a7

Looks pretty cool and kinda responsible :rolleyes:

 

I can't be all bad as I am kind to animals, especially dogs (mind you so was the German Charlie Chaplin impersonator).

 

You see, animals can be very handy for some people to justify their dislike of humans (forgeries included :lol:).  

 

Edited by JapanX

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Claudius   

 

heartwarming_thoughts_that_will_definite

 

 

nice doggie....

sorry to see Kunker pushing these bad pieces.  In their (only) defense they are mainly a coin auction and the medals/orders are just not their forte. 

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JapanX   

sorry to see Kunker pushing these bad pieces.  In their (only) defense they are mainly a coin auction and the medals/orders are just not their forte. 

 

Strongly disagree :cool:

First, they are selling medals and orders for many years.

So this is not their "first time deal"

For quite some time they try to position themselves as (direct quote)

Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG is among the leading auction and trading houses for coins and medals.

 

Second, they are charging brigandish 23% comission for their "activities".

So I guess (for that kinda money) they have some real top notch experts working around the clock.

No? :catjava:

 

Edited by JapanX

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Claudius   

 

Strongly disagree :cool:

First, they are selling medals and orders for many years.

So this is not their "first time deal"

 

+

For quite some time they try to position themselves as (direct quote)

Fritz Rudolf Künker GmbH & Co. KG is among the leading auction and trading houses for coins and medals.

 

Second, they are charging brigandish 23% comission for their "activities".

So I guess (for that kinda money) they have some real top notch experts working around the clock.

No? :catjava:

I concede to your debate points....

1) Many years of experience.

2) Self promotion as an expert in medals.

3) charging top commissions for their expert advice.

Point 1, I only discovered this auction house a few years ago and from my initial look at it I concluded that they were a coin house, exclusively.  And only started to dabble in other artifacts and militaria awards because of the $$$ to be made.  I had not realized how long they have been dabbling in military.

Point 2, I thought when they said "medals" they were referring to TABLE medals. :lol:

Point 3, They certainly do charge a lot.  I guessed that this was more of a psychological phenomena that consumers equate higher prices with higher quality.  At least in this case, higher commission costs with higher expertise. :lol:  Ill-deserved in this case.

 

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JapanX   

I only discovered this auction house a few years ago and from my initial look at it I concluded that they were a coin house, exclusively.   

 

Simple try to google Künker Auktion - Orden und Ehrenzeichen and you will see how many purely faleristical auctions they had ;) 

Point 2, I thought when they said "medals" they were referring to TABLE medals. :lol: 

 

Objection! This is speculation :lol: 

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saxcob   

Point 2, I thought when they said "medals" they were referring to TABLE medals. :lol:

The term "coins and medals" does in this context indeed only refer to numismatic items and not to awards or decorations. Otherwise they would speak of "orders and medals".

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JapanX   

Or maybe they would speak of "Orders and Decorations" or "War Medals".

I don`t know about all contexts and frankly I don`t care much.

But since it comes right down to it, then Kunker sells fake "numismatic items" as well 

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php/topic/32217-another-fake-on-kunker/

http://www.staraya-moneta.ru/forum/fоrum11/tоpic31441/

http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=134294

Allerweltsjunge, so to speak aaed1e12829add746912ff58fd732d3c.gif
 

Edited by JapanX

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Claudius   

And these treasures were succesfully sold in October, 2014

 

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1364209l.thumb.jpg.89f62fd607ba79bb99a8a

Somebody paid more than 40 000 euros ...

are you saying that ALL of these are bad?!?! 

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If they were bought to my place of work I would politely tell them to take them and the beautiful certificates that accompany them to someone else, I might mention that I stopped believing in Santa Claus at the age of 8

Paul

 

 

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utopis   

Künker is not just a regular seller of orders and medals, it is among the top four (by number of sales and customers) auction houses on this topic in Germany. The other three being Zeige, Thies and Hermann Historica.

Künker is regularly selling fakes, not only Russian ones though these seem to be the most prominent. To be honest, I don't believe that they don't know what they are selling - from what I've seen they have considerable knowledge on the topic of orders and medals... but ... ya know, they get 40% of every sold item.

Zeige is also selling quite a lot of fakes on a regular basis, last three auction had a few and these are just the ones I remember. The upcoming sale has some, also.

Hermann Historica is also known for selling a lot of fakes. Just look at their next sale: fake/fantasy anti partisan badge in diamonds for €50K...

Of all these I believe Thies to be the most honest and offering the highest quality items, at least when it comes to German stuff. The only downside is that he is mostly focused on German items.

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JapanX   

Yep, as I said earlier every majour aucion house sells fakes.

Although some stuff that Hermann Historica was trying to move during last 5 yeas is simply beyond imagination.

HH rules! :lol: 

 

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I agree all auction houses sell fakes some unwittingly (unlike the Papacy auction houses are not infallible) and those will in the main will refund you if they can be proved to be fakes. There are others who take the view caveat emptor and there have been those who have been known to be retail house for certain well known forgers (some who now never feel the cold throughout eternity).

Paul

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Dear collectors and colleagues,

First of all some words concerning my own person: Born in 61 I’m interested in orders, decorations and medals from all over the world since more than forty years, since 1986 I’m working also as dealer in this subject, since 1996 as a publisher of phaleristic books (about 100 titles, mostly reprints) and since 1999 also as an independent expert for German and foreign auction houses, museums and the police/courts. My own phaleristic reference library contains more than 6,000 books, nearly all worldwide journals since 1945, and nearly all worldwide auction catalogues since about 1850.

Secondly, I would like to add some words about Kuenker  for whom I’m also working as an independent expert for orders of chivalry, decorations and medals from Germany and from all over the world  since 1999. They made their first coin auction in 1985 (offering also order’s insignia). In 2005 there was the first auction with worldwide orders of chivalry, decorations and medals. Since that time they have had every year one or two medal auctions offering lot-numbers from about 700 to 1,600. In total, Künker did hold more than 260 auction ales and achieves a positive reputation among many coin collectors and dealers worldwide.

It has always been one of the main policies of Kuenker  to take over full responsibility for all offered items and to give a lifelong (!) warranty on authenticity of the pieces. Kuenker and I myself try to do our very, very best to examine authenticity and to describe the lots as exactly as possible. It is obvious that there may be pieces in every auction which after catalogue-publication are publically discussed concerning their authenticity and this is highly important and well accepted by Kuenker. Such pieces are carefully checked again and if there should be any doubts, they are withdrawn from the auction. A fact that is also published in the list of results as well as the addenda and corrigenda which Kuenker receives until the auction day!

As I’m concerned of orders, decorations and medals from all over the world, it is absolutely impossible for me to know everything. Mutual help is highly necessary and four eyes may see more than two eyes, especially in those days when fakes are becoming better and better and more and more dangerous. It is highly necessary to learn from each other because only  together we can combat the international scene of fakes.

What concerns the “diamond”-set of the order of St. Andrew (cat.no. 620) in my opinion it is correctly described as a non-Russian jewellers manufacturing from the 1920ies or 1930ies. Antonio Spada publishes in his work “Onori e Glorie – Volume 3” (Brescia 193) a St. Catherine’s breast star with diamonds (pages 192/193) and a White Eagle breast star for non-Christians with diamonds (page 212/213) with similar (not the same!) reverse constructions (taken in consideration of all differences) that had been part of his collection. And therefore unless other “proof” (which I would highly await to receive in order to convince me!) I would consider this set due to the quite “sophisticated” construction, especially of the breast star not to be a fake after 1991 but as that what I wrote in the catalogue.

Therefore, dear collectors and colleagues, I would highly appreciate if you would let me know also the other cat.-numbers of the items of which you take in doubt their authenticity and perhaps also the reason why and perhaps also to give the “proof” of the respective publication. It could also be possible to contact Kuenker directly. However, give me at least the fair chance in order to enable me to react because it is impossible for me to react “only on rumours”.

Dear collectors and colleagues of this highly important international forum, I would like to ask you to give your statements with a little more of British fairness. A term “auction full of fakes” to be used with illustrations of only four illustrations of Russian pieces and after all to use an “etc.” without any further information seems to me to be quite unfair. The auction offers 931 lots in total of which the Russian and Soviet part contains only about 88 lots, thus representing less than 10% of the entire auction – and then speaking of “auction full of fakes” seems to me to be quite a doubtful expression, especially if there are no further  examples.

Concerning  recent statements showing pictures of orders from Kuenker’s auctions without auction and catalogue numbers has to be considered not only to be unfair but also as very unscientific and polemic which should not be the level of such an important international forum in my opinion. My comments concerning the pictures shown in message ID 15: all three pieces shown that there had been offered in Kuenker’s auction 235 (June 2013 – 8804, 8814 and 8815) and were withdrawn from the auction before it’s start. The first picture of message ID 16 shows cat.- no. 1160 of auction 253 which was correctly described as “later non Russian jewellers manufacturing” (those words also in English) and made “only” 4,800 Euros.

Concealing such published facts may not only be considered to be polemic but may also fulfill the legal fact of being defamatory. Are such statements in accordance with the statutes of this highly esteemed platform if they aren’t in accordance with the British law? Does this quality of statement perhaps has something to do with the fact that the identity of its author is hidden and thus maybe permits him to move on such a low unscientific, incorrect and polemic level? I’m far away to criticise this forum,  its members and their anonymity as it is a highly important platform for discussing important questions. But shouldn’t this happen on a more scientific and less polemic level?

Coming to the end of my admitted very long statement, I would like to point out as a matter of fact I do not like to continue to defend myself against these absolutely unqualified accusations because this behaviour is absolutely beyond my level. If the intension of such “accusations” would really be honest and positive in terms of combat the fraud, it would be quite fair to state the reason why the pieces considered to be fakes. Another alternative is to contact me directly and to provide me with those information. I am sure that there are also plenty members of this forum that I’m always very, very thankful for every correction to my own descriptions and for their support and also to everyone who has a question to me!

Best regards to all of you!

Michael Autengruber

Edited by orderderwelt

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