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The Prussian

Spanish officers 1917

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Hello!

Here I have a photo of a saxon general and several spanish officers.

Does someone know the name of the german general and/or the spanish officers?

Can someone explain the spanish cap and collar badges please?

Thanks a lot in advance!

General (spanische Offiziere).jpg

Scannen0001 - Kopie (2).jpg

Scannen0001 - Kopie (3).jpg

Scannen0001 - Kopie (4).jpg

Scannen0001 - Kopie (5).jpg

Scannen0001 - Kopie.jpg

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Got it!

Infantry, General staff, Artillerie, Engeneer

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coats_of_arms,_badges_and_emblems_of_Spanish_Armed_Forces

The officer of the general staff is a colonel, the artillerist is a lieutenant-colonel and the engeneer is a subaltern officer.

Subaltern officers had six-pointed stars, staff officers eight-pointed stars

 

mw79tt.jpg

Edited by The Prussian

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Hello The Prussian. I would like to contribute to your thread with some photos and theory. About artillery this time.

In 1916  the First World War had concerned the spanish artillery units changing the Regiments of Siege by Regiments of Heavy artillery, mainly hanging the animal traction by mechanics traction (waiting that the state budget include that spensive fee).

In 1917, after four years of war the Spanish Government decided to reorganize the army  in sight  of WW1 combat experience of other countries, that have to assume as own, (the Spanish Army was in the lower hard time after Cuba disaster in 1898 and the future disasters in Morocco as Annual in 1921.

In 1917 the spaniards had stand less than a month in the western-front by example. Even Turkey, Bulgaria, Serbia, or Romania had a much more unit armies than Spain.

In September, 22, 1917; the "Real Decreto de 22 de septiembre" (By Royal Order), allows the artillery composed by:

14 Campaign Regiments

1 Cavalry Regiment

3 Mountain Regiments 

7 Position Batallions (in coast and forts)

1 Regiment of Heavy Artillery and 

7 Headquarters in cities or "plazas"

A new reform comein 1918, but we are talking about 1917.

 

 

 

Edited by Boris

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23_lamina.jpg

A- leutenant - "Rayadillo Uniform", África 1909.(1)

(Be continued just a little more)

 

 

___________________

(1) An anecdote about this uniform... the german army in África adopted this kind of clothing in the ww1 but not was this army that first used this uniforms but it was invented by spanish basing on the cloths used by the Manigua (Cuba) peasants and that turn out to be the best colonial uniform in his period.

24_lamina.jpg

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If you let me The Prussian, in the spanish army the staff-officers are normally lieutenant-colonels, the mayor command a Batallion with the name of "Comandante" and the Colonel a Regiment having under his command several staff-officer, as the Mayor (lieutenant colonel) that command the Mayoría or Plana Mayor) and others. In the Batallion exits too a "Plana Mayor" under the command of various oficcers. Intelligence of Batallion for the americans. The colonel in a spanish regiment is "God" and is not easy to command a Regiment, most of officers finish as Lieutenant Colonel, and very few as Generals that continue to be a political charge.

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Hello Boris!

Thank you very much for those useful informations. The spanish army of the ww1 is one of the armies, that I don´t know a lot...

I didn´t know the history of the Schutztruppe clothes!

One thing... You wrote, in 1917, parts of the spanish army stood on the western front. We were not in war with Spain. Do you have more details? I don´t suppose, they fought...

You alos wrote, a spanish colonel was a god. Maybe it´s possible to identify the officers on my photo?

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Hello : The spanish Army officers of WWI era were germanophiles or pro Allies , perhaps the majority the first option . in second place ,Spain motorized their heavy artillery before ww1 . third ,i dont believe that german colonial troops used the rayadillo colonial uniform , the kordwaffenrock was grey in colour uniform not striped as the spanish rayadillo .finally the spanish Army of ww1 era was something very singular . plentiful of generals and officers but with units very scarse of ncos and soldiers . because of the meagre budgets .the constant bloodshed in Morocco was another handicap for an otherwise brave army .identify the officers as The Prussian asks is rather impossible but with a bit of luck . someone could find what Mision militar was for what went to Germany and who were. 

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17 hours ago, The Prussian said:

Hello Boris!

Thank you very much for those useful informations. The spanish army of the ww1 is one of the armies, that I don´t know a lot...

I didn´t know the history of the Schutztruppe clothes!

One thing... You wrote, in 1917, parts of the spanish army stood on the western front. We were not in war with Spain. Do you have more details? I don´t suppose, they fought...

You alos wrote, a spanish colonel was a god. Maybe it´s possible to identify the officers on my photo?

Hello, Prussian. There was some units in the front, some nationalist catalan (that intent the French Republic help them against Spanish State, after the war, fighting against Germany , thing that never happen, they have even a medal) and some of the rest of Spain, in special from the north, near the Pyrenees, because there was a tradition ( a traditional unión between families (better to talk about "gens", complicated, indeed) between southern french and Northern Spanish young people with matrimonies that bring a economical union inter "gens". You have to think that the french midi have other language (Occitan, the language of trobadours) than the north of French in medieval times, and was under the rule and protection of the Aragón king: You have here a map of the conflict that decided: The  albigenses  heresy that bring later the inquisitorial system from Rome.

Southern France During_The_Albigensian_Crusade_web.jpg

 

Edited by Boris

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I have more information about  Schutztruppe in África, most of then "Askaris" or native troops from East German Africa under a very good general (i don't remember now the name) that fight very well in front of English Empire troops of General Smooths from south África and Indian Troops.

About the identity of your personalities in photo, maybe a specialist named Sorando, knows. I will send it to him. (I have don't see him since grade schooler  times) He is the best adviser of the "Museo del Ejército) in Madrid and maybe he can recognize them.

Only to say that the spanish troops were not officially recognized by the spanish Goverment and that I have the medal some where. 

I ask you for time please to pick up, if it is possible all the information you ask for.

 

Regards

 

Boris II

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16 hours ago, Bayern said:

Hello : The spanish Army officers of WWI era were germanophiles or pro Allies , perhaps the majority the first option . in second place ,Spain motorized their heavy artillery before ww1 . third ,i dont believe that german colonial troops used the rayadillo colonial uniform , the kordwaffenrock was grey in colour uniform not striped as the spanish rayadillo .finally the spanish Army of ww1 era was something very singular . plentiful of generals and officers but with units very scarse of ncos and soldiers . because of the meagre budgets .the constant bloodshed in Morocco was another handicap for an otherwise brave army .identify the officers as The Prussian asks is rather impossible but with a bit of luck . someone could find what Mision militar was for what went to Germany and who were. 

Hello Bayern, yes you are right the most of spanish people, not only army officers were "germanófilos". The fight (intellectual) that you can see in the magazine's period were between "germanófilos" and "aliadófilos" divided between "francófilos" and "anglófilos" that were of different historical thinking (Is a too vast topic to touch here I think).The draws shown (they come from Casterman I think and are very reliables) the use of "rayadillo" in part of german colonial troops. As I was surprised to see the german "rayadillo", I was investigating years ago and really was a copy of "rayadillo", it don't mean it was identical. You are rigth about the spanish army troubles, that leaves all the money in salarys for officers and generals.

About the motorized artillery heavy units begin to be organized in 1916 (this said the book), looking at the ww1 experience it don't means the motorizing of some heavy artillery don't begin before.

The book: "Organización a uniformes de la artillería española de la creación del regimiento real a la II república"

Aldaba ediciones, S.A.: Texto e ilustraciones: Carlos J. Medina Ávila

I.S:B.N. 84-86629-63-2

 

Regards

Boris II

 

 

 

 

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Hello  again I have detected a mistake in the rank badges you kindly show up here. In the spanish army general rank badges always, (not now that is add another grade) the Capitán General that was always the king don't have baton over sword as the others generals but baton over baton.

In spanish: baton over sword : Mando sobre armas or Command over weapons. (better than arm)

In spanish baton over baton : Mando sobre Mando or Command over arm.

 

Is similar to the english but with this hint.

26_lamina.jpg

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Hello Boris : Insisting with the rayadillo , the drawing showed is i believe a representation of the cord cloth or corduroy,which characterizes for having alternated lines of groove and thread . respect to the motorized artillery somewhere in the web exists a video about the theme i will procure to find it again and send you the link saludos Bayern 

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All right Bayern, I have to believe you, if you are so sure. I don't remember where is the work now and it is not easy to recover from forum. :)

About artillery, i don't say no to the mechanization, I am talking (the book) about organization.

Regards Boris.

The medal for take part ( like some of  the german (freikorps) or french medals), was not official:

1493608Voluntaris-catalans-1.jpg

1493611Voluntaris-catalans-2.jpg

Edited by Boris

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Hello Boris!

Thank you for the new infos!

Yes, I know a little bit about the catalan history, when I used to be there with the lorry. I drove 15 years Germany-Spain as "camionero".

You mean, the catalan volunteers were in the front line in nothern france?

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Hello The Prussian,

Maybe you past around Zaragoza, this is my town although I Iive in Teruel.

 

I have just get this magazine "El Diluvio" it talks about the  catalan volunteers in particular. I have to translate it superficially. Maybe it talks about trenchs.

 

 

Voluntaris-catalans.jpg

Voluntaris-catalans2.jpg

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Yes, I´v been a lot in Pedrola (Opel)...

It would be interesting to hear something about spanish troops in the WWI.

Thank you for helping identify the officers! Let´s wait and see

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 It is clearly "Aliadofilo" It talks about 50.000 foreign fighting for France. 2000 or 3000 catalans (no spanish, catalans). Talk about some killed, between them a poet that have write about his experience in the magazine "Las Noticias" and "Iberia". It likes they fight in the trench because other catalan call Vicente Mas managed a machine gun and saw him wounded, he died attacking the german trenchs in May, 1915 in the offensive of Artois.

It likes that they don't belong to an specific catalan unit, it likes they were in french units mixed with french soldiers and other catalan volunteers.

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Ah, ok. I´ve never checked french troops, if there were special catalan companies or bataillons. Probably they served with the unites, placed in french-Catalan

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8 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

Yes, I´v been a lot in Pedrola (Opel)...

It would be interesting to hear something about spanish troops in the WWI.

Thank you for helping identify the officers! Let´s wait and see

I know Pedrola is in the Navarra's road, near the Opel Factory, as you say. A girlfriend I had was from Luceni, near Pedrola.

Nothing at all, I am going to use an intermediary to access that man, maybe is not too easy, we will see.

Maybe, I really don't know. I'll try to get more information.

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I have find some blogs and webs that talk about those catalan voluntaries, nowadays lies and true is mixing suitably, then I wil try to extract the dark points and doubts we had untill now.

The foreign volunteers take part in the WW1, in the French Foreign Legion, all of them. This was because it was forbidden by french reglament to have foreign soldiers in french regular units. in Catalans there were about 900, they begin to fight in the Battle of the Somme (1916). Spanish have to be more, I don't have meet information about that, but the catalans were spaniards in French point of view. All the information precedent to this is true. The number of killed in this battle was as high as their french comrades.Here you ahve the links: If there is more cuestion don't doubt to expose here.

 http://www.elnacional.cat/es/sociedad/homenaje-voluntarios-catalanes_105721_102.html

https://historiayculturamilitar.wordpress.com/2013/06/26/la-medalla-de-los-voluntarios-catalanes-de-la-primera-guerra-mundial/

http://afersexteriors.gencat.cat/es/detalls/noticia/El-Govern-de-la-Generalitat-ret-homenatge-als-voluntaris-catalans-de-la-Primera-Guerra-Mundial-a-Belloy-en-Santerre

https://es.noticias.yahoo.com/blogs/cuaderno-historias/los-independentistas-catalanes-que-lucharon-en-la-primera-guerra-mundial-123316216.html

http://www.jesuslainz.es/artículos/separatismo/francia-y-cataluña/

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Hello Boris : I found the video ,exists in you tube and is spanish ! title :Historia los clarines de la caballeria part2 ,Around the 8th minute appears a parade of heavy artillery the speaker saids. The motorisation of the artillery begins in 1912.the video shows what looks for me as Austro Daimler artillery tractors hauling each three de Bange or similar 120 mm guns . the whole video is interesting , equally the part 1. Officially the first heavy vehicles of spanish artillery were LATIL 4x4 tracteurs . arrived after wwI but the documentary shows clearly at least two pre war Daimlers .saludos Bayern 

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Hello Boris!

Thanks for the links! Unfortunately my spanish is not good enough to read it. It works after a couple of Riojas...:D

Well, I still look for a book about the french foreign legion especially in the WW1. Hard to find...

Here is a site which gives some infos:

http://www.chtimiste.com/

 

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5 hours ago, Bayern said:

Hello Boris : I found the video ,exists in you tube and is spanish ! title :Historia los clarines de la caballeria part2 ,Around the 8th minute appears a parade of heavy artillery the speaker saids. The motorisation of the artillery begins in 1912.the video shows what looks for me as Austro Daimler artillery tractors hauling each three de Bange or similar 120 mm guns . the whole video is interesting , equally the part 1. Officially the first heavy vehicles of spanish artillery were LATIL 4x4 tracteurs . arrived after wwI but the documentary shows clearly at least two pre war Daimlers .saludos Bayern 

Hello Bayern, I have to see the video, but I repeat I didn't say that  motorisation of the artillery begins in 1916, I said that the organization of the artillerie change in 1916 converting the old siege artillery in heavy artillery that must be motorized. It don't means that some units began the motorization of the siege artillery in 1912 or even before.

Regards

 

Boris II

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4 hours ago, The Prussian said:

Hello Boris!

Thanks for the links! Unfortunately my spanish is not good enough to read it. It works after a couple of Riojas...:D

Well, I still look for a book about the french foreign legion especially in the WW1. Hard to find...

Here is a site which gives some infos:

http://www.chtimiste.com/

 

Hello The Prusian

You don't have to improve your spanish without the Riojas, even me should improve my German this way.

I have send the enquiry to Sorando just a moment ago. We only have to pray a little now.

I will look in my E-library for your book, but I don´t remember it. Away I have many books about the First War world.

Next time I'll send you a list.

Regards

PD By the way, the french page is very good.

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